3K...

[Bing Bailey]

will the CPU/DSP be upgradeable at some point like the sensor ? I would imagine they are faster now than when you started. moores law, processing power doubles every 18months. we're at that 18month mark. I guess you guys have to set the present stuff in semi flexible concrete first

 

[Justin Anderson]

Just putting it out there. I love 3K.

 

[Paris Remillard]

First, I love the idea of 3K. A one stop difference in effective DOF won't be hard to compensate for.

Here's a question though. If the compression ratio were higher, wouldn't it be possible to get, say, 48 fps at 4K? I'd rather have a more compressed 4K overcranked, than a less compresed 2K that has to be uprezzed.

Also, just to add my vote, and I know Jim has hinted at the idea before, I'm liking the idea of a 3K-ish 4:3 center extraction for use with 2:1 anamorphics.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I think some of the "simplicity" gets lost when you have to decide 2K or 3K or 4K, in which case 50mm is not 50mm in two of the three and constantly having to make adjustments.

I don't think that's how you should look at it. 50mm is always 50mm, but by changing between 4K, 3K, 2K, you are just constraining your framing within that 50mm FOV to gain higher frame rates and/or longer record times.

So yeah, while going to 3K from 4K when shooting with a 50mm lens is similar to switching to perhaps a 70mm lens, it shouldn't be looked at that way. Because the only thing that changes is the usable FOV, none of the other properties of a longer focal length lens will present themselves, it's just a crop.

...Just a different way of looking at it.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

so we might as well ask for 4K at 48p onboard

Yes! ...Please?

 

[Shawn Bannon]

yes 48p at 4k, awesome.

 

[redrum]

Raises the question though - if the sensor was engineered to ultimately support full-frame at 60fps then what's the holdup? Is it the write speed to the CF card because if it is then couldn't we make do with a lower compression rate like mabye a Redcode 20 or something? At least until the cards get fast enough?

 

[Mitch Gross]

Mitch, that's like saying a Porshe is a compromise between a tricycle and an Aston Martin. LOL.

Just to note, I'm not the one to call 3K a compromise and I don't consider it to be. I call it a nice option. My only comments were about the relative merits of 2k scaled v. windowed. Didn't mean to hijack the thread or otherwise throw a damper on the 3k option. Like Martha would say, it's a good thing.

Mitch

 

[Harry Clark]

Agree with Mitch.
Harry

 

[McDiver]

Sorry, Mitch. I saw Jarred's comment to Albert, and looked above and thought he was quoting you! My bad.
Albert said it was a compromise, and my feeling on the subject is that 2K is as low a quality as you can go, and still get by with a transfer to 35mm (ie. most effects shots are worked out at that resolution). So to get the same specs for double the picture area seemed less like a compromise and more like a big step in the right direction.

That's what I get for not checking comments more carefully . . .

 

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

if, two years ago, somebody had announced the development of a 35mm 3K camera which could shoot 60fps, with a $30K price point, completely accessorized with cine lens included, we would be losing our minds with joy...

....

2k camera ,3 camera 4 camera all are in one camera hmy: RED ONE WE ARE SO LUCKY:greedy:

 

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

If you're delivering in 2K to a Christie 2K presentation, shoot 4K to preserve your S35 focal lengths
, or map out the effective crop factor given to S35 lenses when shooting in 2K windowed (S16) and plan out your lens package accordingly.

.

is it good idea for red team to Brand some private red tool called
RED MASKS fo use with mattebox for easiest shooting calculations senarios
something like

2K 2:1
2K . . .
3K 2:1
3K . . .
4K 2:1
4K . . .
:clown2:
6 masks for every shooting mode

 

[albert rudnicki]

I feel all bruised up now
love3k
love more 2k scaled (one the client likes)
always faithful to 4k

 

[McDiver]

Didn't mean to bruise . . . I just felt they deserved more respect for offering real improvements when faced with technically impossible requests.

My opinion on the "scaled" debate is that for the amount of effort required to impliment scaled, that would mean not focusing on other attributes that are camera-specific. Since scaled is something that can be handled elsewhere, I'd hope their research continues in areas that are production-oriented. Leave the scaling to the ever-increasingly fast computers out there. No need to be re-inventing wheels along with the real invention.

For instance, I'd hate to find out that Red spent 6 months obsessing over "scaling" with current technology (which can be handled in post), and missed an opportunity to increase exposure latitude by exploring some wild auto-luma-masking technology that no-one's built yet!

Shooting 4k at 120 fps will be solved by bandwidth and storage increases (which should be the easiest upgrade to the camera). But for now, we need practical answers to our dreams.

I'm really impressed that Red keeps finding solutions -- even if they're a little off the wall (3K?). It shows that they're still in the brain-storming phase of their growth, and that this product's development is far from over. Over time, brain-storming becomes quite fatiguing -- to individuals and to the organisation. To keep up this level of energy for 2 years, and still turn out new solutions as problems arise, is astonishing. Especially in this case, when they could have just said, "No."

 

[Jarred Land]

your right McDiver.. and we have just begun....

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

Jarred, any anamorphic shooting modes in the future?

 

[Deanan]

This is my concern. Anyone?

Over time, brain-storming becomes quite fatiguing -- to individuals and to the organisation. To keep up this level of energy for 2 years, and still turn out new solutions as problems arise, is astonishing. Especially in this case, when they could have just said, "No."[/QUOTE]


It's addicting and it seems to be accelerating

 

[Nils Ruinet]

Scaling has no value whatsoever when it doesn't do what the customer mistakenly expects it to do. And what is does do is not what the customer wants.

Jim

Really ?

What I'd expect from 2K scaled is :
- 25 fps
- smaller files than 4K, but with 35mm DOF, 35mm field of view, and less noise than 2K cropped
- quicker processing times than 4K

Could you please tell me where in my list I am mistakenly expecting something that 2K scaled doesn't do ?

Because if it does do what I just listed, it has a huge value for me on some specific projects.

Nils.

 

[Ivan Cortazar]

Scaling has no value whatsoever when it doesn't do what the customer mistakenly expects it to do. And what is does do is not what the customer wants.

Jim

I can understand Red Team frustration. They've worked so hard, they gave us so much more than what they promised and still people complain or don't appreciate it. But I don't see it as complain or lack of appreciation. We're all different and we have different hopes and ideas for future projects. And maybe 3K cropped is not as interesting as 2K scaled at 24p. And I think both are valid.

It is up to Red Team to choose. One of the things that completely made me decide to buy the camera was the support from RedUser. This is unprecedented and making history. Where have we seen that the developer answers questions the way the Red Team does, or the community gets so excited about their product? We can't expect this from the "Big" companies.

So I love the camera (even-though I haven't got one yet), love the images I have seen so far and unless something tragic happens, I am buying the camera no matter what, even if it stays like it is now. I put so much hope and savings into this project. I truly believe that will help me grow as an independent film maker and also allow me to get bigger/better jobs.

Being said that, I really got a bit "disappointed" with the build 14. And I put it in quotes because I love all the improvements and the effort from Red Team so it sounds awkward to dismiss such an effort. But honestly, I really hoped they would come with a 2K scaled down version. I understand that all those things can be done in post, and they want to push the limits even further to create the best camera they can do; more frames, better compression, better sound.

I might be wrong but I really think there is a huge benefit from getting a 2K scaled. And I wouldn't say 2k scaled vs 2k cropped, because both things are completely different. If you want to shoot high speed or better quality, then I understand the only way is with a cropped sensor.

But in my case, I might rarely use slow motion. Let's face it, we'd only use it in few commercials, some action movies and of course "Bay Watch" episodes. I'm just kidding. :usd:

But the cropped version is a very annoying thing. The first time I shot with a Canon 20D, it was so annoying not to have a full frame, and still hate it. You get into a small room, and your 28mm is not enough and you have to go to 17mm to get the same, but with more distortion and aberration. But Canon has a Jpeg better, medium and lower option for those moments you don't need all the power.

Not all of us can afford having 20 people crew in all the projects we are doing and 6 Tbs around. I am planning on shooting few documentaries. Having a full scaled down version at 2K, even if the max fps is 24p, but 8 hours of footage on a brick instead of the 4 that would be a LANDMARK to me. And I know the quality would still be amazing. Then for another projects with more time and access then use 4K or 3K/2K at higher fps with cropped sensor. I might be the only one here. Maybe we should create a new post and make a poll.

I understand that it might not be a priority, but IMHO I really think that adding things like that (not even 1080p) would add a lot of value to the camera. And for sure many indies would love it. Red Team, don't hate me for saying this.

To those few that were able to read until here, congratulations. You made it!

Anyway, thanks to the Read Team for all your efforts and support but please, don't forget about the "lower class" indie people. :help:

 

[Adrian Correia]

Jarred, any anamorphic shooting modes in the future?

now there's a question!