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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

3K...

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Slinnn said:
Really ?
:unsure:
What I'd expect from 2K scaled is :
- 25 fps
- smaller files than 4K, but with 35mm DOF, 35mm field of view, and less noise than 2K cropped
- quicker processing times than 4K

Could you please tell me where in my list I am mistakenly expecting something that 2K scaled doesn't do ?

Because if it does do what I just listed, it has a huge value for me on some specific projects.

Nils.
Click to expand...

Let's see if I can be more clear. 2K scaled is NOT going to happen in camera. But you get it automatically when you shoot 4K.

25fps is a meaningless advantage since every format we offer can accomplish this.

If you shoot 4K, you have IMMEDIATE 2K QT files. No internal camera scaling necessary. YOU GET 2K SCALED AUTOMATICALLY AND INSTANTLY NOW. Obviously maximum quality is not the issue so you already have what you want.

You are asking for something we are already giving you. The ONLY advantage to 2K scaled in camera is longer recording times. Buy a RED Drive.

Jim
 
Don't forget folks, an awful lot of films were (and still are) shot) in the old-fashioned Academy format.

Academy is still fairly popular because the entire negative to release print chain can be done with simple high-speed contact printing. If you don't need any digital special effects it's still by far the cheapest way to get a release print into the cinemas.

Academy is 21.95mm vs 24.89 for Super 35. If Super-35 is 4K, then Academy is about 3.5K, so 3K is not all that much smaller. I doubt that the change of depth of field is going to that much of an issue.
 
3K windowed will you give your S35 lenses a 1.33x crop factor.

Meaning a RED 18-50 in 3K should be the equivalent of an S35 24-66mm lens.

Not a big deal at all.

2K or 3K scaled will never happen and it arguably doesn't need to happen anyway.

The only advantage to 3K/2K scaled shooting would be when shooting high-speed with S35 lenses in the aspect of FOV.

But there is a simple work around......Map out the equivalent focal lengths to either the 1.33x crop (3K) or 2x crop (2K) factor, and plan your lens package accordingly if you'll be shooting over-cranked.

Now onto a good question....

Jim, will we be seeing anamorphic shooting modes in build 15 or future builds?
 
Anamorphic will be in a near future build...

Jim
 
But Jim, wouldn't 2K scaled offer advantages for those who wish to shoot (S)16mm lenses or B4 mount lenses?

3K is really nice by the way, great job!
 
yohenk said:
wouldn't 2K scaled offer advantages for those who wish to shoot (S)16mm lenses or B4 mount lenses?QUOTE]

Since these lenses wouldn't cover the full 35mm sensor, you'd have to crop in post anyway, wouldn't you - which would be the same as shooting 2k windowed. Or am I missing something?
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Jannard said:
The ONLY advantage to 2K scaled in camera is longer recording times.
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I don't want to keep beating a dead horse, but this statement is what keeps confusing people. The advantage to shooting scaled (that the tech specs part of red.com used to show) was that it offered higher framerates while still taking advantage of the sensor's full frame. That's a big deal to a lot of us - much moreso than longer recording times.

I appreciate you making it clear now that you are no longer pursuing a 2K scaled option. The push for the 1080 recording format, at least from me anyway, was because I wanted a higher fps full frame option - not because I wanted a camera that shot 1080 for "instant deliveries." Perhaps the EFP/ENG guys see it differently, but I don't think that ever was fully understood. If you are still planning to offer a 1080p scaled mode (from 4K) that can shoot 60p, I would still be very interested. If, however, your "1080 mode" (scaled or otherwise) maxes out at 30p or less, I would re-ask the question of whether or not it's worth it to even waste a minute thinking about it. The advantage was the framerates. If that is gone, then I agree with you... there's no point.
 
Jannard said:
Let's see if I can be more clear. 2K scaled is NOT going to happen in camera. But you get it automatically when you shoot 4K.

25fps is a meaningless advantage since every format we offer can accomplish this.

If you shoot 4K, you have IMMEDIATE 2K QT files. No internal camera scaling necessary. YOU GET 2K SCALED AUTOMATICALLY AND INSTANTLY NOW. Obviously maximum quality is not the issue so you already have what you want.

You are asking for something we are already giving you. The ONLY advantage to 2K scaled in camera is longer recording times. Buy a RED Drive.

Jim
Click to expand...

To be fair, this is about 99% true. But to scale the image from 4K to 2K BEFORE compressing with REDCODE would be preferable to after, which is what you have now. How big a difference is it? Will anybody but Mr. Nattress really be able to tell? That's a different story. But it is a technical difference.

Mitch Gross
Abel Cine Tech
 
Jannard said:
Let's see if I can be more clear. 2K scaled is NOT going to happen in camera. But you get it automatically when you shoot 4K.

25fps is a meaningless advantage since every format we offer can accomplish this.

If you shoot 4K, you have IMMEDIATE 2K QT files. No internal camera scaling necessary. YOU GET 2K SCALED AUTOMATICALLY AND INSTANTLY NOW. Obviously maximum quality is not the issue so you already have what you want.

You are asking for something we are already giving you. The ONLY advantage to 2K scaled in camera is longer recording times. Buy a RED Drive.

Jim
Click to expand...

Seriously guys, how can this be made any more clear? There is a technical limit which the sensor cannot exceed. You will not get faster frame rates in any scaled mode. If that were the case, im sure they would be giving us 4k at 60fps.

I agree with Jims view on the matter. If i want longer recording time, Ill buy a drive. The processing is getting faster and we've already set-up a pretty lean and mean workflow for cranking through the 4k.
 
Häakon said:
The advantage to shooting scaled (that the tech specs part of red.com used to show) was that it offered higher framerates while still taking advantage of the sensor's full frame.
Click to expand...
No it doesn't and that's the misunderstanding. When using the sensor's full frame your limited to the maximum scan rate the same as you'd have in 4k. Scaled would take that full-frame image and scale it down so maybe you'd get longer record times but that's the only advantage that could be had.

Faster frame rates come from using less of the sensor so that's why windowed 2k and 3k have faster frame rates. Scaled 2k could never offer more than 60fps and could only offer 60fps when fullrez 4k offers 60fps.

The advantage was the framerates. If that is gone, then I agree with you... there's no point.
Click to expand...
Faster framerates was never an option for scaled.
 
Couldn't be because scaled uses the full surface of the sensor so how could scaled offer any faster frame rates than full-frame 4k? If there was ever any mention of faster frame rates for scaled it would have been related to piping more data through the compression engine but that would only refer to up to 60fps because the sensor is limited to 60fps in full frame mode and they've said that the maximum is 4k at 60fps. So you could never have had scaled 2k at any faster than 60fps.
 
albert rudnicki said:
"Faster framerates was never an option for scaled."

Are you sure?
Click to expand...

Yes. I went back to the original published spec (1st NAB) when 2K scaled was a consideration and it was 60fps max. That's all it could have ever been given the clock speed of the sensor.

Jim
 
48fps at 4K is very close to the Holy Grail.
 
Jannard said:
Let's see if I can be more clear. 2K scaled is NOT going to happen in camera. But you get it automatically when you shoot 4K.

25fps is a meaningless advantage since every format we offer can accomplish this.

If you shoot 4K, you have IMMEDIATE 2K QT files. No internal camera scaling necessary. YOU GET 2K SCALED AUTOMATICALLY AND INSTANTLY NOW. Obviously maximum quality is not the issue so you already have what you want.
Click to expand...
Jim,
thank you for your answer.
At least now it's perfectly clear : "2K scaled is NOT going to happen in camera."

I still feel a bit disapointed because I was really hoping for this, but I will stop asking for it, as you probably just CAN'T do it in camera...

Jannard said:
You are asking for something we are already giving you. The ONLY advantage to 2K scaled in camera is longer recording times. Buy a RED Drive.

Jim
Click to expand...
Exactly, longer recording times and less storage needed for backups.
And you know what, that's the ONLY advantage I was really looking for when I was asking for 2K scaled.

I will be using this camera for very different kinds of projects. For most of them, 4K will be perfect. But there will also be some doco projects in remote locations with small crews where storage will matter. And there, 2K scaled would have made a big difference : less drives needed to backup files, and smaller transfer times. Believe me, when you shoot a few hours of footage every day and make your backups in your hotel room at night, it matters. Really.

And yes, don't worry, I already have 2 RED drives on order. :)
(and will probably buy some more later)

Nils.
 
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