3K...

[Antoine Baumann]

But scaled won't get you higher frame rates than full sensor, et least that's how I understand it.

Cheers,
Damien

Well as I understand it, the sensor is able to "record" 60fps in 4.5K.
The compression is not, and possibly the write speed of your CF or Drive (which depends on how much it is compressed).
So you if you imagine that compressing a 2k scaled version of the 4k is faster than compressing the original 4k, you could think that you might record 60fps of 2k scaled on CF and drives.

ciao,
antoine

 

[Georg Misch]

Jim, there IS and advantage to scaled vs. cropped. Depth of field, field of view and image magnification. There is a big difference between a 25mm and a 50mm, even if you stop down the 50 so the depth is the same. There is an amazing optical quality in using a longer focal length to achieve the same angle of view.

I agree, scaled does make a lot of sense in order to maintain 35mm DOF while saving storage space at the same time - if you don't want to go down the full blown 4k post route.

Georg

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

But scaled won't get you higher frame rates than full sensor, et least that's how I understand it.

Cheers,
Damien

Damien, scaled is full sensor, windowed is cropped from the center of the sensor.

Currently RED does not offer any full frame option aside from 4K.

So you if you imagine that compressing a 2k scaled version of the 4k is faster than compressing the original 4k, you could think that you might record 60fps of 2k scaled on CF and drives.

ciao,
antoine

Apparently 2K scaled taxes the sensor alot more than 4K full frame does due to the need to down-convert in camera for 2K (I read this in a post by Jim, sorry if it is not correct). So I don't think that's true Antoine.

 

[Häakon]

You aren't losing any DOF when shooting scaled, only FOV. (crop factor)

Hi Alex,

That is not correct. Shooting scaled preserves the FOV (and arguably retains more resolution) - that's precisely why it's a better option. Shooting windowed is where you lose FOV (and DOF, in order to get that FOV back). I realize that scaled recording is a harder request for RED than just ditching half of the sensor and taking windowed pictures, but it's superiority in these two areas is why it keeps coming up. If the processing power just isn't there in the RED to get overcranked full-sensor readout, then that's one thing... but that was supposed to be a reality with the RAW port all along (as well as onboard with the scaled modes before they were axed from the feature list). If it is within RED's capability at some point to offer the feature, however, I don't really get why Jim is so vehemently against it.

 

[Andrew M.]

Hi Alex,

That is not correct. Shooting scaled preserves the FOV (and arguably retains more resolution) - that's precisely why it's a better option. Shooting windowed is where you lose FOV (and DOF, in order to get that FOV back). I realize that scaled recording is a harder request for RED than just ditching half of the sensor and taking windowed pictures, but it's superiority in these two areas is why it keeps coming up. If the processing power just isn't there in the RED to get overcranked full-sensor readout, then that's one thing... but that was supposed to be a reality with the RAW port all along (as well as onboard with the scaled modes before they were axed from the feature list). If it is within RED's capability at some point to offer the feature, however, I don't really get why Jim is so vehemently against it.

Häakon, did you get my PM, your, my favorite file .mov is not loading anymore?

 

[Michael Morlan]

In response to those calling for a KISS methodology; have you dipped into the arcane engineering menus of a Varicam or CineAlta necessary to color these cameras? The RED One is incredibly simple compared to these kludged ENG cameras. (I don't know enough about SI-2K, Viper, etc. to compare them.)

Jim and the RED team: 3K! Damn! Thank you. (Time to update the workflow diagram again.)

Michael

 

[Michael Morlan]

BTW, everyone: This from the build 14 ops guide:

REDCODE 28 . RED-FLASH . RED-DRIVE
2K 2:1 . . . . 75 fps . . 75 fps
2K . . . . . . 75 fps . . 75 fps
3K 2:1 . . . . 50 fps . . 60 fps
3K . . . . . . 36 fps . . 50 fps
4K 2:1 . . . . 25 fps . . 30 fps
4K . . . . . . 25 fps . . 30 fps

REDCODE 36 . RED-FLASH . RED-DRIVE
2K 2:1 . . . . 75 fps . . 75 fps
2K . . . . . . 75 fps . . 75 fps
3K 2:1 . . . . 36 fps . . 50 fps
3K . . . . . . 30 fps . . 36 fps
4K 2:1 . . . . 25 fps . . 25 fps
4K . . . . . . . n/a . . .25 fps

 

[albert rudnicki]

Hi Alex,

That is not correct. Shooting scaled preserves the FOV (and arguably retains more resolution) - that's precisely why it's a better option. Shooting windowed is where you lose FOV (and DOF, in order to get that FOV back). I realize that scaled recording is a harder request for RED than just ditching half of the sensor and taking windowed pictures, but it's superiority in these two areas is why it keeps coming up. If the processing power just isn't there in the RED to get overcranked full-sensor readout, then that's one thing... but that was supposed to be a reality with the RAW port all along (as well as onboard with the scaled modes before they were axed from the feature list). If it is within RED's capability at some point to offer the feature, however, I don't really get why Jim is so vehemently against it.

Haakon,
I totally agree
We all have been there torturing the subject of scaling against cropping.
I also don't understand Jim's position on this subject...
In my opinion the 3K is weird, I guess it is the best compromise that can be at the moment, and cheers to that, but it's still a compromise.
Hope there is still hope:bleh:

 

[Andrew M.]

What about something like this?

This frame that is highlighted (not darkened) contains less pixels than the full 3k frame.

Oh and green == 2:1 frame height. Yellow is the smaller 3k equivalent 4k frame height.

4K with 3:1 is the same amount of data as 3K with 16:9

I would love to have 4K 3:1 at 60fps

It is 4096X1365

 

[Antoine Fabi]

I'm trying to put back my jaw in place.

3K 60fps is WAY better than what i expected.
The croping factor is very usable for me.

...and REDCODE 36 is better than 28 ? really ?

...You're an incredible crazy team

Cheers!

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

Hi Alex,

That is not correct. Shooting scaled preserves the FOV

Ah, I completely knew that......

I have no idea how I mixed that up, well aside from the fact that it was 3 something in there morning! :wink:

Long work hours & lack of sleep = bad.

Don't get me wrong though, I agree with you that scaled is preferable, it just doesn't seem possible at this time.

 

[Andrew M.]

Haakon,
I totally agree
We all have been there torturing the subject of scaling against cropping.
I also don't understand Jim's position on this subject...
In my opinion the 3K is weird, I guess it is the best compromise that can be at the moment, and cheers to that, but it's still a compromise.
Hope there is still hope:bleh:

Scaling with the simultaneous extrapolation at 60fps will require a lot of RED CPU/DSP resources.
But talking about FOV if we scale without interpolation just by grouping 4 pixels in to the one and somehow reading just the average values of all 4, will give you only 2MP (same as cropped 2K) instead of 8MP of 4K, but it will preserve FOV. However, this has to be implemented directly on the Misterium I think.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Scaling doesn't tax the sensor (it doesn't care), but it sure the heck would tax the CPU.

Supersampling is always a good thing, no matter the technology, no matter the field, analog or digital. Start with more and it always looks better in the end. 4k scaled to 2k will look better than 2k windowed. Forget about the high speed. That's nice & all, but realistically, most of the work (I'm guessing 95% or so) that RED One cameras will be used for will not be for 4k finish. Capturing 4k but supersampling to 2k will yield a very nice image at a data rate that most will find far more comfortable.

It was in the original spec and I can understand that it was a hell of a thing to try to implement which is why it was dropped, but there are advantages. But yeah, one of them is not a higher frame rate. That's besides the point.

Don't get me wrong -- still fabulous machine and 3k is an interesting concept and love all the options. I totally get why scaling is not available, but it is not valid to say that there is no value to it in concept.

Mitch Gross
Abel Cine Tech

 

[Jannard]

Scaling has no value whatsoever when it doesn't do what the customer mistakenly expects it to do. And what is does do is not what the customer wants.

Jim

 

[Brook Willard]

...and it requires more horsepower to accomplish, so we might as well ask for 4K at 48p onboard rather than 2K scaled 48p.

 

[planet e]

In my opinion the 3K is weird, I guess it is the best compromise that can be at the moment, and cheers to that, but it's still a compromise.

if, two years ago, somebody had announced the development of a 35mm 3K camera which could shoot 60fps, with a $30K price point, completely accessorized with cine lens included, we would be losing our minds with joy...

where is the love, y'all?

i guess it is good to keep challenging Jim and Co., because they seem to love to be challenged. but this seems to be a breakthrough, not a compromise at all, but a completely viable and desirable option in its own right.

and a big boon for shooting nature and sports, we love a little extra telephoto....

 

[Mitch Gross]

Scaling has no value whatsoever when it doesn't do what the customer mistakenly expects it to do. And what is does do is not what the customer wants.

Jim

Agreed.

I guess we could call that a "refinement of definition."

;-)


Mitch

 

[Jarred Land]

In my opinion the 3K is weird, I guess it is the best compromise that can be at the moment, and cheers to that, but it's still a compromise.
Hope there is still hope:bleh:

bullshit.... the last thing 3k is is a compromise. I can see if someone said 720p was a compromise.. but 3k, come on guys.

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

Will there be any anamorphic shooting modes re-introduced?

 

[McDiver]

Mitch, that's like saying a Porshe is a compromise between a tricycle and an Aston Martin. LOL.