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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

250 ISO Looks great.

Bob Gundu said:
Just trying to be realistic guys. The fix is for the speckled red in the shadows. Not a reduction in overall noise.
Click to expand...


Correct Bob. It's the colour in the noise, not the noise pattern itself.

Battistella
 
After reading tons of post about noise issue, and i am really tired of reading about them, let see if i can explain something about the v2 dragon. Basically it is the same sensor as the original dragon. What has been updated, or better yet, improved, is the OLPF. The new one gives you many improvements over v1 olpf. But like many things, sometimes to improve some qualities you have to trade with other things. What I am talking about is olpf sensitivity. The new one eats more light, about 1.5 to 2 stops maybe. So the light hitting the sensor is a lot less. So if we rate at 800, in reality the light hitting the sensor is the same as if you were rating somewhere @2000 or more. This of course means that the image will have more "sea monkeys" naturally like any system without NR.
In other words what was 800 before now is 320-500iso . I personally think it is a great trade off considering all the benefits v2 olpf gives you.

If i am wrong please enlight me.
 
Jacobo, I agree with you. I'm slowly converting over to your line of think and that of other on this forum. We all just have to "re-learn" the camera. I was very comfortable and happy with my MX, i knew when and how i could push it and i got really comfy with 800-2000 ISO as the majority of my work is at 60p and so need those extra 2stops, and became extremely frustrated when shooting in available light (like a live action soccer match at night) at 800-2000 ISO and seeing how noisy the image appeared to be (noisy red channel). Now, the dragon is by far a superior lens over the MX, and i've also shot with old OLPF and hate the flares and images it produces compared to the new. The new OLPF is the best solution period!we all just need to relearn our cameras and understand where and how we push them. I think that why the Alexa did so well among many dps because it produced a image that was similar to film when it came to how you could manipulate the image. I personally could replicate the look of the Alexa on my MX and didn't understand the whole debate but then again I started in the Red world and didn't convert over from film and so i wasn't "comfortable" with anything yet. But now i find myself having to relearn with the Dragon and comparing it to much to the MX and what i could do with it, but they are really TWO different cameras. Frustrating as it is, it's life!
 
Understand having to learn the idiosyncrasies of the Dragon, you'd need to do that with any new camera. I for one love the ability to rate at 250 when I have plenty of light, that's one of the many advantages of Dragon. What was hyped was the ability to have the choice to rate at 250 or 2000. Now, after the firmware upgrade gets released we may have that choice, but lets not try and convince ourselves that what we have now is somehow better.
 
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i did a good amount of testing across various ISOs with my DP the other day. all looked fantastic under various lighting conditions buuuuuut....

250 is the new black.
 
From the years I shot on RED, I learned to try to light for lower ISO's. When you think about it, the MX was a 320 sensor and you exposured for 800 to give you 1 1/3 stops more in the highlights, cause your underexposing the sensor. When you did night scenes, you would want to stay at 320 for the thickest negative. Dragon is similar, but you don't need to think about highlight protection. 250 is the sensors base. And when you light to 2000 ISO in camera, your underexposing sensor by 3 stops, so your taking away more shadow detail resulting in noise. That doesn't mean you can't shoot at 2000 ISO. It just means if there's no light, there's no light.
 
so now we are supposed to be excited about clean 250? does anyone really think that firmware will magically give us the 3 extra stops promised?
i really don't care about old dlpf or new or future olpfs....even a stop improvement won't do....this was the camera to go ahead or head to head with what has been in the market for a couple of years....i understand that it can create amazing images but to break the hold alexa has (and even canon is getting a better foothold in with their C) this needed to have clean 2000...not because alexa or canon do but because in order to convince someone to switch over it has to be better...obviously and quite a bit.....and promising clean 2000 and delivering clean 250 is not it...
this is a step in the wrong direction.....i understand that people need to somehow justify their investment but.....
i love shooting at 250....most of the time i do....and i love the image i am getting with my epic....my problem is not lack of DR or bad color....at all...my problem is that the fun stops at 800....in reality i need something that can be taken to 4000 at times....
 
steve green said:
Understand having to learn the idiosyncrasies of the Dragon, you'd need to do that with any new camera. I for one love the ability to rate at 250 when I have plenty of light, that's one of the many advantages of Dragon. What was hyped was the ability to have the choice to rate at 250 or 2000. Now, after the firmware upgrade gets released we may have that choice, but lets not try and convince ourselves that what we have now is somehow better.
Click to expand...

I dont think anybody is trying to convince that 250 is better than 800 or 2000, its just diferent.
 
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Paul,

Just have the old OLPF installed. It's not like anyone is shoving the new OLPF down anyone's throat. I mean jarred has offered to put the old OLPF in anyone's camera if they send it back. Red made some changes to the OLPF according to some nasty problems they were having that were discovered in the testing phase. But they didn't take away anyone's ability to have exactly what we've been seeing with the old OLPF. I've seen the exact same noise profile in old OLPF footage, just without the color

If you want to rate at 2000 or 4000 ISO I think you should still expose 1 stop over key when rating at that way and you might get some very acceptable images.

You can't really tell me that you actually believe that 250 and 2000 would have the same amount if noise. (And please don't say, well "RED said" because believing kodak, arri, Sony, BMD or any manufactures brochure is frankly naive).

You can't even pick up a nikond700 or a 5D and expect the sensor to perform exactly the same way at every ISO. It's just not realistic and those sensors are electronically tuned to specific ISO settings that are baked in.

To me. If I really wanted what you are asking for the best solution might be to have the old OLPF installed.

Battistella
 
the worst part about this debate is everyone wanted better roll offs on Dragon v1...and now everyone wants better sensitivity (clean 2000) on Dragon v2.... I personally just want a camera that books... i think the noise can be dealt with in post processing (and hopefully with the FW update), at least to a certain degree.. maybe what we all really need is some looks on red.com that we can download/share together? surely one of us could come up with a good denoise look and it could turn into a fun way for nerdy look makers to share their work... I think that would open up a lot of creativity as far as us generating looks and sharing them...also maybe some camera emulation is needed too, I know lots of people like have the simulators on competitors websites...it can be a great tool to learn a new camera on...and coupled with the looks idea it can be a great way to prep some looks for a job too!
 
Spending more time testing Dragon it does sort of feel like my old Sony F900 back in the day when dealing with the shadows/blacks (of course MUCH more range in the highlights). Whatever was in the shadows was going to stay in the shadows. Seems the same with Dragon. Rating it at 320/250 seems to help but trying to dig anything out of the blacks like you're using to doing with MX or Alexa is often bringing out a lot of noise. I'm definitely filling in the shadows much more than I typically would, at least until the new FW arrives. This does mean more lights, more time and more fuel for the genny's.
 
Jacobo Martinez said:
I dont think anybody is trying to convince that 250 is better than 800 or 2000, its just diferent.
Click to expand...
just like f2 is just different from f5.6....one is not "better" then the other....but sometimes you need f5.6 or even f8 or 11....and that is where 2000 simply gives you much much better options....
it's the difference between a battery powered lightkit or 5/10Ks....and in terms of budget that difference is HUGE
 
David Battistella said:
Paul,

Just have the old OLPF installed. It's not like anyone is shoving the new OLPF down anyone's throat. I mean jarred has offered to put the old OLPF in anyone's camera if they send it back. Red made some changes to the OLPF according to some nasty problems they were having that were discovered in the testing phase. But they didn't take away anyone's ability to have exactly what we've been seeing with the old OLPF. I've seen the exact same noise profile in old OLPF footage, just without the color

If you want to rate at 2000 or 4000 ISO I think you should still expose 1 stop over key when rating at that way and you might get some very acceptable images.

You can't really tell me that you actually believe that 250 and 2000 would have the same amount if noise. (And please don't say, well "RED said" because believing kodak, arri, Sony, BMD or any manufactures brochure is frankly naive).

You can't even pick up a nikond700 or a 5D and expect the sensor to perform exactly the same way at every ISO. It's just not realistic and those sensors are electronically tuned to specific ISO settings that are baked in.

To me. If I really wanted what you are asking for the best solution might be to have the old OLPF installed.

Battistella
Click to expand...
i haven't had my epic upgraded yet...i am working on projects and need it for at least a couple more weeks...i am seriously on the fence about doing the upgrade at all!

and i am not naive at all....when the claims of 16.5 stops DR across the entire range from 250-2000 were made, i jumped on it right away, simply i had and have never seen anything that can do that.....and man the reaction that got were funny....everybody from phil on down telling me and explaining me that of course this was possible with this sensor.....and i was more then happy to be pleasantly surprised.....
turns out it does not work after all....you either get it at high or low iso...and i would rather have it at the high iso....because although i shoot 90% at the lowest iso possible, the rest i need the higher and ND is always an option......
there is a reason the old olpf was changed....so taking the old one is not really an option....saving 10K looks like the best option right now to me....because i still have not seen a single head to head direct comparison that makes good on the claims...even in terms of DR....
 
Okay i really didn't want to start another augment about all this.

I just wanted to show off how much range 250 ISO had which really impressed me and that it was now a useable solutions. 800 ISO is the ideal, yes, but now i know i'm not loosing anything if i have to shoot 250 ISO.
 
At this point if we can have the same "blacks" the MX produced at 800, along with all the other advantages that come with the Dragon, it would be one powerful little camera. Is this possible?
 
Work-arounds and really nuanced operability to get the most out of an upgrade, on a camera that itself took a year+ to get buttoned down (and has a stigma of such) is *not* a good thing. I'm surprised people are as happy as they are to be shooting at ISO250 (which probably measures closer to ISO200 compared to the competition). While I can appreciate RED working on a fix, and while I can wait until the dust settles to make my own final judgements, the few DPs I've talked with about Dragon have said they'll be sticking with Alexa for the foreseeable future (one even said, 'same old RED; beta camera issues', which is really disappointing given how solid DSMC-MX has been).

Hindsight is always 20/20, and it seems RED may have prematurely pulled the trigger on the the new OLPF and corresponding tweaks... In retrospect, they should have stuck with the old OLPF and ~13stops or whatever, instead of trying quickly turnaround a "highlight tone priority" style fix. I'm sure they'll figure it out, but most people won't be waiting (and at which point has the damage already been done?)
 
Fair enough. I respect everyone's needs and opinions.

Battistella

paul schefz said:
i haven't had my epic upgraded yet...i am working on projects and need it for at least a couple more weeks...i am seriously on the fence about doing the upgrade at all!

and i am not naive at all....when the claims of 16.5 stops DR across the entire range from 250-2000 were made, i jumped on it right away, simply i had and have never seen anything that can do that.....and man the reaction that got were funny....everybody from phil on down telling me and explaining me that of course this was possible with this sensor.....and i was more then happy to be pleasantly surprised.....
turns out it does not work after all....you either get it at high or low iso...and i would rather have it at the high iso....because although i shoot 90% at the lowest iso possible, the rest i need the higher and ND is always an option......
there is a reason the old olpf was changed....so taking the old one is not really an option....saving 10K looks like the best option right now to me....because i still have not seen a single head to head direct comparison that makes good on the claims...even in terms of DR....
Click to expand...
 
paul schefz said:
i haven't had my epic upgraded yet...i am working on projects and need it for at least a couple more weeks...i am seriously on the fence about doing the upgrade at all!

and i am not naive at all....when the claims of 16.5 stops DR across the entire range from 250-2000 were made, i jumped on it right away, simply i had and have never seen anything that can do that.....and man the reaction that got were funny....everybody from phil on down telling me and explaining me that of course this was possible with this sensor.....and i was more then happy to be pleasantly surprised.....
turns out it does not work after all....you either get it at high or low iso...and i would rather have it at the high iso....because although i shoot 90% at the lowest iso possible, the rest i need the higher and ND is always an option......
there is a reason the old olpf was changed....so taking the old one is not really an option....saving 10K looks like the best option right now to me....because i still have not seen a single head to head direct comparison that makes good on the claims...even in terms of DR....
Click to expand...

Paul, at every chance you get, you seem to try to rally people around your disappointment in Dragon. The funny thing is, you don't even own one yet. With all the complaining you've done, I thought you paid for something you now felt stuck with, but that's not the case. I see nothing but a sea of options in front of you.

You have the option to not upgrade to Dragon. It's not mandatory, you know.

You have the option to upgrade to Dragon with the old OLPF, if you fancy.

You have the option to upgrade with the new OLPF and accept that it won't be the ideal camera for every shooting situation and learn to get the most out of the situations for which it is.

You have the option to upgrade to Dragon with the new or old OLPF and see how the swappable OLPFs pan out.

But, I think your best option might be to consider the possibility that RED just doesn't make the type of camera you need at this point, especially since you often need to shoot between 2000 and 4000 ISO. Maybe Sony, Canon or Panasonic would suit your needs better.

If you consciously choose to shoot on a camera you know (or should know) doesn't have built-in NR, you're unwilling/unable to implement NR reduction in post and unwilling/unable to add more lights, I wonder why Dragon is even still on your radar.

Whatever you do, please let the people who write about positive experiences with their Dragons post their results without you constantly throwing a wet blanket on it and trying to convince people it's wrong for them because it's wrong for you. Sheesh.
 
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