250 ISO Looks great.

[luigivaltulini]

That spot looks great Luigi.
So how come we have these wildly different reports on Dragon? Some can't even shoot at 800 with a clean picture. Your spot looks great. It looks like you had plenty of light. Why did you need to go to 2000?
And not that I'm defending shooting in the dark without lights. But I do love contrast and lighting as such. I love a big source, but I love saving on the fill also, and I'm concerned that the areas I like for the light to drop off will be unacceptable.

I understand your feeling, after all these posts including Daniel but everything here is exaggerating the limits.
Well if you can serve, all externally managed with only 1 HMI power 2kw and 1 kobold 400w.
Internally, I used the light from the hallway + 1 Kino Flow from 300w and. 1 kobold 200w, to forget with the Zeiss CP2 open 2.8t (in the hallway was otherwise impossible to put the lights were seen in the shot), you have plenty of light to this?
Here I was forced to climb 2000iso


If you can affect 5kws Redcode 8:1 for all the time and slow-motion 15:1.

 

[Gerald Menclik]

hard for a RED newbie ....

hard for a RED newbie ....

until now I was shooting broadcast ..... got my scarlet dragon ..... first test ..... grmpf ..... straight out of the camera ..... never had issus with focus - now I have ....
my mbp without retina makes me nervous about the pictures ..... :mad2:


Have to get new monitors .... obviously ........... ;-)

 

[Freya]

I think the thing everybody seems to be missing here, with the talk of firmware upgrades and the old OLPF not being supported in the future, is that Jarred already stated that they are going to be releasing a new interchangable OLPF system, perhaps something along the lines of the magnetic OLPF's that they have with the Alexa Monochrome or something, who knows but in any case, red are planning a system that will make it easy to swap out OLPF's in the field.

This makes total sense to me and is basically an extension of the modular way of doing things that RED is already working with, it's just taking that further.

What that means in practice is that you could have two different OLPF's. One perhaps for when you are in love with shooting at 250 ISO and another for when you feel the need to shoot 2000 ISO. This seems no different to me than on film where you might load up with 200T at one point and then switch to 500T for the night time scenes or something.

In fact it may come to pass that RED will develop a new OLPF that can take you beyond 2000 ISO but with more artifacts of the kind we have already seen but still allowing you to shoot in very low light. I think that would be a useful compromise and would certainly not be unusable, you would just need to be aware of the constraints when shooting in lower light situations.

So RED are working on a system to allow various OLPF filters and that will basically be the answer to all this fuss.

The best of both worlds.

Freya

 

[Elsie N]

i love how this thread was about images, not ISO discussion and we completely f*cked it up somehow lol!

i think its tough on red, we all want good roll offs, we all want 800=2000 ISO clean... I'm not sure how much the dragon has evolved throughout the OLPF changes/people wanting alexa highlights... I'm not sure if the 800=2000 was replaced by "alexa like" roll offs, or if they are mutual at all....we will all eventually see what they come up with FW wise...i think all the speculation, praise, and anguish is kind of irrelevant. red will do what they can do... i think my suggestion of sharing looks (in the complaint dept) will fix EVERYTHING...

even if the sensor doesn't end up the way you/me/whoever wants if we had a community sharing looks we would have all the damn post processing presets in the world to get the images we want...why limit it to red color/gamma/dragon color/gamma and force people to learn this technical stuff? some just don't want to do it, can't do it, unwilling to do it, don't want to know about how to post process the film...

technicolor did that bs for them, they didn't need to know how to light, frame, do clean moves, shoot, AND process! sure maybe some did, but come on that is too many damn hats for a DP to wear! i think us having a community of presets would eliminate this issue...sure its not as cool as dialing in looks yourself, and applying noise reduction, or grain, what have you...but clearly some just want a camera that shoots...look at amira and all the presets! look at alexa, people just like it! well give them what they want i say, let nerds like me make lots of looks up and just give it out as presets...it will eliminate a shit ton of issues by taking all the problems off Reds plate, and letting us work on the finessing of the images...I'd upload hundreds of presets on my own even, red having a distribution system for this would be the way to go, solve so many of these post processing debates once and for all i say...

Sounds like something worth exploring.

 

[Brian Boyer]

Should we be content with 2 out of 3 and move on?

For the current OLPF, I think the simple answer is, "Yes." We get 2 out of 3 all the time from most manufacturers, we just don't realize it most of the time because there was no prior announcement.

You have to keep in mind that it's not just new OLPF versus old OLPF. It was also old OLPF Dragon versus MX. In that respect, even with the old OLPF's issues, it was all 3 out of 3 compared to what MX offered.

Improving 2 of the 3 most important characteristics (IMO) in the new OLPF at the expense of the 3rd is a compromise (notice I didn't say it was ideal) I can live with, especially since a) the noise character is rather pleasing to me and b) I can always get rid of it with NR or rating the sensor lower and using more light.

And like Freya, myself and others have mentioned, swappable OLPFs might have a huge positive impact and put this whole issue to rest.

One thing that just occurred to me (and has probably been mentioned elsewhere) is the claim that Dragon's ISO 2000 is equal to MX's ISO 800 could still very much be true, as far as the sensors themselves go. Remove the OLPFs completely and Dragon may indeed be the cleaner sensor.

The difference in sensitivity of the OLPFs seems to be the deciding factor at this point. If that's the case, maybe people can stop feeling like they were duped or betrayed in some way, especially if you can pop in a more sensitive OLPF when you want it. Thoughts?

 

[Jacobo Martinez]

Have you already tried Dragon?
I do not understand why you have to be disappointed? I still have a rental Epic .. but strangely no one wants to use it. Cabbages, Dragon is noisy?!?! never heard anyone in 6 months someone who complains about this .. Maybe that I'm 3 centimeters in front of the monitor to count pixels maybe even in still and not moving!
They are all more than happy with 2 more stops and in some they would like even more!
The words and comments are the most beautiful in the post when the colorist and DP clap their hands because they have a spectacular image ... never seen or happened before with Epic! I do not think they are so happy for the "noise"!
I'm filming as the first ISO 500 to ISO 2000 with no problems.
That day you will have to hand the DRagon you forget to post these ...

Look at this little spot filmed in 1 day, from 800 iso to 2000 iso with the new OLPF, it seems to me to hold up well do not you think?!?! or is noisy for you?

of course it's just my thought

Link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRwCk_y3LUc

Luigi, the commercial looked "Magnifico"

 

[Bohdan Klos]

For the current OLPF, I think the simple answer is, "Yes." We get 2 out of 3 all the time from most manufacturers, we just don't realize it most of the time because there was no prior announcement.

Ah yes, that little thing called Prior Announcements. The little things like specifications that makes people spend money and consider one brand over another brand. If I ran my business like that...well, you know what would happen to my relationships with customers? No need to answer that question.

"RED: Everything Changes". This is put forward as Reds motto. Do they still use this motto publicly? I only hear enthusiastic members here repeat it. There has been plenty threads on the marketing methods Red uses to retain customers. Missing specifications (everything changes) and missing shipping dates by years (everything changes) were certainly hot topics.

So, when is the red noise fix coming? Was there any info on this or still silence? I was offline for a few days.

 

[David Battistella]

So, when is the red noise fix coming? Was there any info on this or still silence? I was offline for a few days.

If you've been offline for a couple of days then the best place to check is RECON, but you know that because you've been on here (in a few flavors) for many years.

battistella

 

[Bohdan Klos]

If you've been offline for a couple of days then the best place to check is RECON, but you know that because you've been on here (in a few flavors) for many years.

battistella

I cant see any info in Recon. Why so irritable all the time? LOVE and PEACE.

 

[Brian Boyer]

Ah yes, that little thing called Prior Announcements. The little things like specifications that makes people spend money and consider one brand over another brand. If I ran my business like that...well, you know what would happen to my relationships with customers? No need to answer that question.

"RED: Everything Changes". This is put forward as Reds motto. Do they still use this motto publicly? I only hear enthusiastic members here repeat it. There has been plenty threads on the marketing methods Red uses to retain customers. Missing specifications (everything changes) and missing shipping dates by years (everything changes) were certainly hot topics.

I'm not saying people should be content with that position or that it's even a wise position for a company to have. What I am saying is, at this point, people shouldn't be surprised when it happens. RED is a lot better at keeping their enthusiasm and announcements in check than they used to be.

I think they thought the change in this case (new OLPF) would be a welcome one overall. It probably is, despite the backlash. The fact that it's not for some comes with the territory of being in business. Some people love the new oat clusters in their favorite cereal and some people think they ruined it.

 

[David Battistella]

I cant see any info in Recon. Why so irritable all the time? LOVE and PEACE.

Very loving. Very peaceful. Only happiness here. Just trying to be helpful. Major announcements come through the Recon section so it's the fastest way to find out if there is any major news.

I'm rubber and you're glue.
Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.


Battistella

 

[paul schefz]

This is too funny...red announcements....how many have we seen since the first dragon mentioning? The whole dragon upgrade room at nab 13? Or the fact that this new Olpf is in reality the second re-working of what is now becoming a 2 year old camera and the 3 is still not in sight?

luigi: I really like your stuff and respect your opinion....but a YouTube video does not show what this is about...,it would be great if you could post a few raw stills...no NR, no ADD....just a frame or 2 at 800 and at 2000....

 

[Brian Boyer]

This is too funny...red announcements....how many have we seen since the first dragon mentioning? The whole dragon upgrade room at nab 13? Or the fact that this new Olpf is in reality the second re-working of what is now becoming a 2 year old camera and the 3 is still not in sight?.

Despite your claims to the contrary, I think it's official. But, by all means, grind away.

 

[Bohdan Klos]

I'm rubber and you're glue.
Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.
Battistella

I have a "rubber" in my wallet. Is that what you mean? Joke.

 

[Elsie N]

For the current OLPF, I think the simple answer is, "Yes." We get 2 out of 3 all the time from most manufacturers, we just don't realize it most of the time because there was no prior announcement.

You have to keep in mind that it's not just new OLPF versus old OLPF. It was also old OLPF Dragon versus MX. In that respect, even with the old OLPF's issues, it was all 3 out of 3 compared to what MX offered.

Improving 2 of the 3 most important characteristics (IMO) in the new OLPF at the expense of the 3rd is a compromise (notice I didn't say it was ideal) I can live with, especially since a) the noise character is rather pleasing to me and b) I can always get rid of it with NR or rating the sensor lower and using more light.

And like Freya, myself and others have mentioned, swappable OLPFs might have a huge positive impact and put this whole issue to rest.

One thing that just occurred to me (and has probably been mentioned elsewhere) is the claim that Dragon's ISO 2000 is equal to MX's ISO 800 could still very much be true, as far as the sensors themselves go. Remove the OLPFs completely and Dragon may indeed be the cleaner sensor.

The difference in sensitivity of the OLPFs seems to be the deciding factor at this point. If that's the case, maybe people can stop feeling like they were duped or betrayed in some way, especially if you can pop in a more sensitive OLPF when you want it. Thoughts?

This caught my eye. Can anyone think of a situation where one could safely shoot without any Low Pass filtering? (assuming a non-filtering protector of the sensor, perhaps?)

 

[Norbert Jalitsch]

jan, zuerst war es das, dann das, dann wieder das....das rot kommt vielleicht weg (wahrscheinlich eher ein Hardware fix) aber der rest ist schlimmer als epic....ich hab gerne Struktur und Korn, aber nicht bei digital....
sorry ich schreib das auf deutsch weil ich mich schon langsam zurückhalten muss...man fliegt hier schnell raus wenn man zuviel falsches oder richtiges sagt
schau dir den test http://indiecinemaacademy.com/red-epic-dragon-vs-red-epic-mx-hype-real-part-01-video/ an....abgesehen vom rot ist einfach sogar im hellen grau überall Korn....auf alle falle mehr als bei epic....

+1

ich seh das nicht anders...

 

[Stephen Matthews]

This is too funny...red announcements....how many have we seen since the first dragon mentioning? The whole dragon upgrade room at nab 13? Or the fact that this new Olpf is in reality the second re-working of what is now becoming a 2 year old camera and the 3 is still not in sight?

luigi: I really like your stuff and respect your opinion....but a YouTube video does not show what this is about...,it would be great if you could post a few raw stills...no NR, no ADD....just a frame or 2 at 800 and at 2000....

So wait you want to see the rough unfinished version because on the delivery medium you can't see any noise? If it's not there in the finished product, who cares?

You put your money down on anything before it's done these days and you run the risk of getting burned, if you fixate on your bumps in the road rather than getting past them you'll get nowhere in life, this life and especially this world it's all about problem solving, I'm seeing a lot of people posting about problems but very little evidence of them trying to come up with their own solutions, instead they throw their hands in the air shelf their state of the art(yet seemingly still beta) camera and sit on their hands waiting for RED to fix it...

Maybe they just haven't posted their troubleshooting steps and tests as I have yet to see anything like this done, for example getting two dragons together one someone thinks is noisy, another someone thinks is clean, and try and determine if there are good one's and bad one's out there(testing the range from way underexposed to way over, in tungsten, daylight, fluorescent, led).

I guess the name of the game is constructive criticism/feedback, and I"m seeing very little of it. Guess I'll have to wait until my scarlet is called up so I can test for myself, but from what I have deduced I will have no issues with the upgrade whatsoever as I know what I'm going into now, a camera that needs to be mapped on my light meter before as I'm not sure the exposure tools are working right, I would ensure to have the appropriate amount of light, but also I would test low light shots at high ISO's through my pipeline, including NR, to see what I could get away with.

I admit it has been a while since the last news, weekly updates would be nice but also pointless for many weeks, but I imagine considering the backlash to the new OLPF they are going to take their time to get it as good as they can get it before releasing anything. That's why with this type of bleeding edge tech to wait until it's out in the field of average Joe and it's working relatively smooth for them, or until you can get it in your hands to test, otherwise you are taking a huge risk weather you calculated it or not.

Have a good one stay productive concise, and always be constructive with your criticism!

 

[luigivaltulini]

luigi: I really like your stuff and respect your opinion....but a YouTube video does not show what this is about...,it would be great if you could post a few raw stills...no NR, no ADD....just a frame or 2 at 800 and at 2000....

thanks Paul,
I understand your feeling, but you are sometimes very destructive, I do not understand why this!
We are a very large community here, I think maybe 50,000 users, it happens that not everyone is on the same side.


Having said that I have recovered the flight a couple of still from my laptop since I travel! and I know for sure that you tell me .. here is the noise! eheheheh
But the noise exists in each camera and the Dragon, and very nice and fine, very easy to remove if you want. However, in still seems worse when you watch the moving clips on the monitor. Believe me Dragon is a fantastic camera, still a few adjustments and then we


I wanted to show you a comparison, of course, not color, (they are bad shots), but only noise, I caught a HD from a short film that I made with a Alexa Plus in ProRes 4444 .. all these images are underexposed, Dragon even more about 1 stop in again, the R3d all converted to ProRes 4444 and then Tiff ..


To tell the truth I did not remember until I compared curiosity!
This is in real life and not a test done to measure! is a comparison maybe stupid but real facts,but we are not far from what really happens.
I do not think that Dragon is worse than the other with the new OLPF (wait for the red fix), if he had the old one was definitely a step forward!


Have a look forward to the next FW to discuss. Good weekend


Just a thought

https://www.dropbox.com/s/usaa1yxsfkkysfe/dragon.rar


Enlarged watch them on photobucket

[/URL][/IMG]

 

[David Battistella]

Looking at those r3d's luigi, nothing is seriously underexposed. Maybe no lights, but there is enough light to create a decent image and push with less noise.

This is the point, when there is "enough" light you have room to play.

When there is no light, or you really starve the sensor is when you get into problems, like film or just about any other camera ever invented.

Battistella

 

[luigivaltulini]

Looking at those r3d's luigi, nothing is seriously underexposed. Maybe no lights, but there is enough light to create a decent image and push with less noise.

This is the point, when there is "enough" light you have room to play.

When there is no light, or you really starve the sensor is when you get into problems, like film or just about any other camera ever invented.

Battistella

certain David,
are bad with English I try to express myself as I can.