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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

2.39 and 2.40 aspect ratio! Going Nuts!

S

Scotty Fox

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Hey all,

I've been looking in DCP requirements, etc. and have been told as well as read, that they require a 2.39 aspect ratio.

I've posted on this before, but now that I'm at the stage of doing vfx and color, and getting ready to move r3d files to those people, I'm finding my aspect ratio to be problematic.

All my r3d files from a shoot say they're 2:4:1. I'm mastering at 2K 2.39 (for DCP). So that would be 2048x858. But using that resolution with my r3d files, or even bumping to 4K (4096x1714) to check the same 2.39 ratio, it gives me black slivers on the top and bottom. These only go away when going to 2048x853 which is true 2:4:1.

I was told that it's probably just a matte, or some setting the DP did, but it's NOT baked in. I've tried a bunch of different settings in REDCineX in the "FRAMING" menu, from custom, to no crop, forcing it to 4096x1714, etc. But every time I do I get black slivers or crazy looking colors where the slivers are. It always wants to revert back to 1708.

I've contacted RED to clear this up in case there's an issue elsewhere, but I'm assuming now that this was a setting chosen by the DP in camera and in fact might be baked in!

If this is the case, and it's not something I'm overlooking with the r3d files, then should I stick with the 2.39 and just deal with the slivers of black (they're pretty small, but probably larger on a big screen :-) ). Or is there another option?

I looked on the RED site, and found the resolution that appears when I hover over my clips in the project bin. 4096x1708 / 2:4:1 WS (widescreen). On the site it says it's a preset, but doesn't go into it.

Am I missing something in REDCine!? I'm going nuts, any advice or experience would be so greatly appreciated!

Ok guys thanks!
 
well if you/ your DP chose to shoot in a format that was 1:2.40 in camera, then of course that is what you have in post, "baked in."

a solution would be to slightly zoom in, in post, so you get the 1:2.39 ratio instead. - The difference between 2.40 / 2.39 would prob. be until your black borders disapear.
 
David is right. The difference is so slim so do not care about it. I know that sometimes you can get an odd line of pixels there but then just crop it of. I would not "zoom in" if not coming from a greater resolution as such small little zoom would actually mess quite a bit with your sharpness. If going from 2k to 2k with a slight zoom or such. If you are coming from 5k and going down then no problem shave a few pixels from the side. To tell you the truth I even done fit to fill several times between 2.4:1 and 2,39:1 and I can promise you there is no person on this planet that will spot the difference.
 
I agree it's pretty small and barely noticeable. But if I do get into a festival I did not know how that would translate to the big screen, and/or if people would notice it enough to realize I didn't take the time to fix it. If no one notices in a theater setting then I don't really care at this point.

BUT, I'm going from 4K to 2K anyway because I've reframed and punched in on a lot of shots. So if I'm not mistaken the 2K shots I'm filling with 4K footage for the punch ins will already not have the black slivers on the top and bottom because I'll be using the larger image.

So to make it uniform with the 2K images that I'm not punching in on, I'll have to punch in slightly on those as well to get rid of the black and make it all uniform correct? So in essence I'll be having to use 3K or 4K shots for pretty much everything if I want to make it all the same look as far as the black pixels go, and not have any softening of the image if I were just to zoom in on the 2K files themselves.

Thanks for the help.
 
no one will notice if it is shown on television or the internet in a 16.9 letterboxed version, but in a big cinema in scope, it might be noticeable, or worst case Scotty might get a rejected DCP, you never know:)

I would prefer a "micro" zoom in, than a change in pixel aspect ratio as Bjorn suggests, but either way fixes it:)
 
Yeah... I guess I'll just fix it then by a small zoom on each.
 
Certainly from a cinema point of view no one will notice or care whether your deliverable has 2 pixels of black lines top and bottom, and by the time they do notice then it'll already be in the projector and they'll just blow it up to get rid of it.

However, there is from a broadcast/Distribution QC point of view a potential danger for not ensuring a perfect full frame image, which is that if at a later date some distributor has to legalize or alter the master or do something to it after adding burnt in subtitles for some reason (or just suffers from a gamma shift - which let's be honest, could totally happen) then you will end up with 2 pixels of black that are maybe ever so slightly gray against the black letterbox background.)

Or, worse, if they are cropping into it at 16:9 rather than letterboxing (because they are evil and want pixels top to bottom). They might drop it on a timeline and blow it up by the correct percentage, leaving the two pixels top and bottom, and some anal QC tech has the master rejected for vertical blanking.

Basically, in this day and age with modern deliverables you want to ensure that EVERY SINGLE PIXEL is clean, usable image.

Your decision to crop ever so slightly is the right one.
 
David, you are assuming that the 'you' in question is the same company doing the post and the same person supervising the session for future submastering. For international delivery when a sales agent is handling the masters, you can't guarantee this and if you are doing festival route are probably not creating all international deliverable sub masters at once.

My take is finish the highest master clean edge to edge, avoid any potential for downstream fuck ups. A few pixels off the sides of the frame are hardly going to hurt any worse than a few black pixels top and bottom, right?
 
One way to get rid of the black slivers is to use "fit height" and let a few pixels fall off either side.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
The thing is that for broadcast distribution, you'd deliver a 16x9 HD master with a letterbox anyway, you wouldn't deliver something that was full-frame 2.40.
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Actually, sometimes you do deliver a 2.40 letterbox for broadcast, particularly if it's for HBO, Showtime, and so on. It still has to pass QC blanking specs.

But nobody is gonna give a crap about 2.39 vs. 2.40. I think it's accepted that 2.40 is the modern theatrical spec, and as long as it's marked "2.40" and is 100% consistent throughout the entire transfer, it'll be fine.

When in doubt, get the exact specifications in writing from the distributor for the deliverables, and make sure you follow it to the letter. I have never seen cases where the distributor changed the masking after the delivery, but anything is possible.
 
Marc Wielage said:
Actually, sometimes you do deliver a 2.40 letterbox for broadcast, particularly if it's for HBO, Showtime, and so on. It still has to pass QC blanking specs.

But nobody is gonna give a crap about 2.39 vs. 2.40. I think it's accepted that 2.40 is the modern theatrical spec, and as long as it's marked "2.40" and is 100% consistent throughout the entire transfer, it'll be fine.

When in doubt, get the exact specifications in writing from the distributor for the deliverables, and make sure you follow it to the letter. I have never seen cases where the distributor changed the masking after the delivery, but anything is possible.
Click to expand...

Sure, you deliver a 2.40 or 2.39 letterbox master, which means it is 16x9 with a letterbox, which is why it doesn't matter much if the letterboxing is 2.40 or 2.39, which was my point, that for broadcast delivery, you generally don't send people 2.40 or 2.39, you send people 16x9 HD with a letterbox -- it would only be in delivering a DCP where it would be more critical.
 
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