12 Late Night Dragon Thoughts

[Gabriele Turchi]

sorry for asking again...but i am too curious...

phill,
do you know anything about the release of the new color science ? did you see it in action?

will it be new new "red color XXX " and a new "red gamma XXX" ?

i am wondering if the new color science is about mainly " greatly" using the data from dragon (color space , etc..) , or if it will also produce quite different/better images out of the camera "as is " ( i mean better/different than what RC3/RG3 is doing right now ...)

being a colorist i can tell that dragon images are quite more thick than epic .. more color depth (so you can push more without issue) , but i am also curious if this announced new color science will also be about getting a different image (look) "as is out of the camera"

thanks
g

 

[Phil Holland]

sorry for asking again...but i am too curious...

phill,
do you know anything about the release of the new color science ? did you see it in action?

will it be new new "red color XXX " and a new "red gamma XXX" ?

i am wondering if the new color science is about mainly " greatly" using the data from dragon (color space , etc..) , or if it will also produce quite different/better images out of the camera "as is " ( i mean better/different than what RC3/RG3 is doing right now ...)

being a colorist i can tell that dragon images are quite more thick than epic .. more color depth (so you can push more without issue) , but i am also curious if this announced new color science will also be about getting a different image (look) "as is out of the camera"

I know a bit about the new color science, but that wasn't actually what I was there to test on Friday specifically.

The thing I was at RSH to test was the new calibration, which is different from the color science itself. It's been mentioned that Dragon will have it's own DRAGONcolor and DRAGONgamma in a future release. The underlying calibration effects exactly what those color spaces use.

The important thing to note is calibration is different than color science, although they work together. I imagine once Red ships the next batch of Dragons this new calibration will be hammered into the floor and color science of course can always advance. Pretty much what Jarred said in his post.

Right now from what I can observe from the current implementation of REDcolor3/REDgamma3 in regards to Dragon is that it looks a bit different than Mysterium-X. It's basically "richer and truer" overall. How different will that DC/DG will look from what RC3/RG3? i don't know. I also don't exactly know if it truly needs to with what the Dragon-fied RC3/RG3 looks like today. So we'll have to wait and see on that front.

 

[Gabriele Turchi]

thanks phil

g

 

[Michael Moreno]

Beautifully written Phil.. hard to keep up with your passion and work ethic )

 

[Phil Holland]

Thanks guys. Dragon's pretty damn important to me and others. I know why I'm excited about it and I've seen exactly what it can do. Good to pass that along and also prepare for what to expect when it comes to feature set and specifications.


Thought I'd share a thought with you guys I had today, although I haven't asked if this is part of what it does.

The Dragon sensor has an on board heater. That made me wonder as I was drifting to sleep last night if it would allow the sensor to get up to calibrated temperature quicker perhaps. Most know it's a good idea to wait for the camera get up to the Black Shade Calibration temperature before firing off a take, but I've seen plenty of people flip the camera on and roll real quick take. Not exactly optimal performance from a cold start for instance. I wonder if the new heater plays a roll here.

Not really something people hit on a typical shooting day even with power downs and battery swaps, but it would be interesting if the new heater gets you going from a "dead cold camera" to "warm and ready to shoot camera" quicker than before.


I've also been thinking of some fun stuff to do with HDRx. With the crazy broad dynamic range we now have on Dragon I can see some interesting potential if the operating range 1-6 stops hasn't changed. From a straight capture perspective that can lead to some major freedom for outdoors work. However, from an exposure and processing perspective there's some interesting things you can do with that big playground. That one I'm itching to tinker with.

 

[Zeb B]

Hope you have the "Employee of the Month" parking spot at RED. Damn fine work brother! ;-)

 

[Will Keir]

You crack me up sometimes...

Definately well deserved but he's not even an employee ...

Hope you have the "Employee of the Month" parking spot at RED.

 

[Nils Ruinet]

The Dragon sensor has an on board heater. That made me wonder as I was drifting to sleep last night if it would allow the sensor to get up to calibrated temperature quicker perhaps. Most know it's a good idea to wait for the camera get up to the Black Shade Calibration temperature before firing off a take, but I've seen plenty of people flip the camera on and roll real quick take. Not exactly optimal performance from a cold start for instance. I wonder if the new heater plays a roll here.

My understanding was that the purpose of the integrated heater was exactly that : bringing the sensor to the right operating temp faster ?

I wonder how long it takes to get there with Dragon, btw...

 

[Randall Weatherington]

This brings up an interesting situation.

The Dragon sensor has an on board heater. That made me wonder as I was drifting to sleep last night if it would allow the sensor to get up to calibrated temperature quicker perhaps. Most know it's a good idea to wait for the camera get up to the Black Shade Calibration temperature before firing off a take, but I've seen plenty of people flip the camera on and roll real quick take. Not exactly optimal performance from a cold start for instance. I wonder if the new heater plays a roll here.

Astronomers intentionally cool their sensors in order to increase the sensitivity, and to minimize noise. This is critical for very faint, long exposure, deep sky objects.
Do any of the Red sensors exhibit these qualities which would make them suitable for longer exposures or do the Red sensors react differently?
I could potentially see the monochrome sensor being used for astronomical work.

 

[Phil Holland]

Hope you have the "Employee of the Month" parking spot at RED. Damn fine work brother! ;-)

You crack me up sometimes...

Definately well deserved but he's not even an employee ...

Heh. Who knows. Maybe one day. I'm often two blocks away from RSH.

My understanding was that the purpose of the integrated heater was exactly that : bringing the sensor to the right operating temp faster ?

I wonder how long it takes to get there with Dragon, btw...

Don't exactly know yet as I haven't timed it. Although I've done several black shades from a dead start. Honestly wasn't thinking about it and also not exactly working in chilly conditions for that matter. I'll take a closer look soon on that one.

This brings up an interesting situation.

Astronomers intentionally cool their sensors in order to increase the sensitivity, and to minimize noise. This is critical for very faint, long exposure, deep sky objects.
Do any of the Red sensors exhibit these qualities which would make them suitable for longer exposures or do the Red sensors react differently?
I could potentially see the monochrome sensor being used for astronomical work.

Yep. I've hung out with some astrophotographers up at Mount Pinos. Typically they are cooling their sensors because of "very long" exposures. Dragon is still a DSMC body, but things have changed a bit when compared to Mysterium-X. While you can certainly use a Dragon for fairly common stills and motion exposures, I don't think you'll see 5 minute exposures via the camera brain. It's just not a system optimized for that really.


Here's a few bits from the Red DSMC Operation Guide that a few may have missed:

Exposure (Shutter Speed)

With the exception of Epic Dragon, the slowest available speed is 1/frame rate, so for 24 FPS, the slowest speed is 1/24 sec. In Epic Dragon, the slowest available speed is 1/8 sec, regardless of sensor frame rate.

Integration Time

In Epic Dragon, the slowest available speed is 125.109 ms (Esposure: 1/8 sec).

Speed Ramp Mode

NOTE: The Ramp Settings are not accessible on any Epic Dragon or Scarlet Dragon.

Frame Processing

NOTE: The Frame Processing screen is not accessible on any Epic Dragon or Scarlet Dragon.

Fan Control

- Epic Dragon and Scarlet Dragon: Target temperature range is 55-70 °C.
- Epic Mysterium-X and Scarlet Mysterium-X: Target temperature range is 45-70 °C.

Dragon does like to run hotter.

Anamorphic

Epic Dragon cameras support anamorphic 1.3x and 2x with each format.

The DSMC Ops Guide also informs us that HDRx is not available on Dragon, however, this has obviously changed and I imagine some of these features could potentially come back or change at a future date via a firmware update. Time will tell.

 

[Chad Lancaster]

hope speed ramp and frame averaging get added by release, I use those a lot