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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

12 Late Night Dragon Thoughts

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  • #21
Gabriele Turchi said:
That is HUGE to me , but are we sure the dragon is clipping (natively) there ?

do we have access to those R3D ? if that is true looks like a MASSIVE difference .
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I got them here. These are Chris's files though. It's up to him to make them publicly available.

The highlight roll-off example is from an over exposed sky during the day at T5.6, I balanced both images in post so there was a 1:1 sort of comparison. Both of those crops show was Mysterium-X and Dragon see under those conditions.

Another two images worth looking at are these:

cp_RedQDRTest_01_T1p4_ISO0320.jpg


This shows how much more information Dragon holds when blowing things out. While and extreme example, there's literally detail that Mysterium-X doesn't "see".

cp_RedQDRTest_03_T22_ISO0200.jpg


At T22 in broad daylight Dragon holds color accuracy and dynamic range in this situation. Look at the sky in the background in particular. DRX wasn't corrected here on Mysterium-X, but you can see how that effect seeps into other parts of the image. This also demonstrates a bit more of that smooth highlight roll-off in a somewhat more realistic shooting scenario. Frame left where the leaves from the tree meet the sky you have a hard transition with Mysterium-X. On Dragon there's actual color and tonal data there and it holds nicely.


Josh Beadle said:
What is the cycle time of the Black Shading process?
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Had to do that twice yesterday. It's hanging around 9 minutes at the moment.
 
Thanks! <9 minutes would be very cool
 
Phil Holland said:
#8 - Newly Designed Sensor Box.

Something that hasn't been really talked about, and it's actually not even listed on what's included with the Dragon upgrade, is the new Sensor Box. And I assure you it comes with it! There's some really interesting differences between Mysterium-X bodies and Dragon bodies. Specifically how far back things are and what the exact shape of things are, this may have lens implications for some that protrude back into the body a bit. I have a couple theories on the matter. However, where it shows visible gains (although extremely slight) is that the new Sensor Box indeed provides a bit more of a protected light trap which boosts the contrast of the image captured. Extremely subtle, but noticeable.
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This question has been asked before but I'm wondering about Leica's M lenses.
Do you think this new sensor box allow for Leica lenses wider than 50mm, like the 35mm or 21mm. Your thoughts?
 
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  • #26
thanks phil and Christopher ,
this kind of tests really tells a lot about the superiority of dragon

1 question : knowing that dragon have 2+ more stops of DR ( i would not dare say more than that ) , just for judging how the overexposed roll-off behave ,
would't be fare have a Tstop couple of stops brighter on dragon ?

what is see on that test , is that MX when clipping literally eat and alter ate all the surroundings areas , while on dragon the overexposure is not as intruding , but i am wondering is because those "preserved areas " are actually quite not exposed as in MX ( because of the greater latitude )

i think would interesting having the same test but setting the camera with 2 different Tstops

ps: i know that we could change ISO to simulate that , but i quite not the same i think..


what you think ?

thanks

g
 
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  • #28
Gabriele Turchi said:
thanks phil and Christopher ,
this kind of tests really tells a lot about the superiority of dragon

1 question : knowing that dragon have 2+ more stops of DR ( i would not dare say more than that ) , just for judging how the overexposed roll-off behave ,
would't be fare have a Tstop couple of stops brighter on dragon ?

what is see on that test , is that MX when clipping literally eat and alter ate all the surroundings areas , while on dragon the overexposure is not as intruding , but i am wondering is because those "preserved areas " are actually quite not exposed as in MX ( because of the greater latitude )

i think would interesting having the same test but setting the camera with 2 different Tstops

ps: i know that we could change ISO to simulate that , but i quite not the same i think..


what you think ?
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Dragon has over 3 stops more Dynamic Range compared to Mysterium-X. What I was referring to was "light sensitivity" with that number, meaning just how much more it sees into the dark in particular. The ISO standard of what the general exposure is and thus the look of the image of say ISO 800 should mostly look the same between the Mysterium-X and Dragon. What is different is how much more information is there at the ceiling and the floor. You can see that it Chris's examples I uploaded in the wall, the sky, the tree, the ground, the girls shirt, etc....

Meaning while the ISO exposure is rated correctly (which important to keep that standard) you get more shadow and highlight detail. You can choose to rate your exposure anyway you want to exploit the dynamic range and use it to your advantage.

So if you did have clipping highlights or wanted more detailed shadows you can adjust your exposure accordingly via the lens, ND, and also within the workable clean dynamic range if it suits what you're after. Most don't toy with shutter speed for motion work to adjust exposure, but you could of course do that too.

** edit. And one more thing! This is sort of why I'm excited about HDRx coming back. Think of 1-6 (or whatever the maximum will be on Dragon) stops more protection in your highlights can literally effect how you shoot under crazy back lit conditions. You could in Chris's examples expose at T5.6 which puts the girls skin in more of a midtone territory and still maintain even more info at the top end. I dig that.
 
Thanks for sharing Phil, really looking forward to the Dragon!
 
Thanks again Chris and Phil.
 
thanks for those files....not sure if i am doing something wrong but in the latest rcx beta i see maybe an extra stop in the highlights but a lot more noise in the shadows for the dragon....

edit: after looking at them again i would say that the correct exposure would be somewhere else...f11? i would like to see how dragon would handle the sky then....the other blown out files just show me what i already know, epic does not like over exposure...what should at least remain white only turns magenta....of course if you completely over expose....
maybe i am missing something?
 
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Thanks!

Thanks!

Thank you for the info Phil, we can't wait for our Dragons to arrive. For me just the 6k is good enough reason to upgrade. The rest are super gifts.

I was out earlier at Best Buy watching a 65" UHD Sony Led tv and they had a demo that was playing with some Red strawberries etc.

The picture quality of the video looked fantastic in 4k.

I did not played with the Dragon yet but I'll be very interested to find from you or anyone else if Dragon can take better footage than that and in the first place what camera they used (obviously a sony but which model).




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The world is as you see it.
 
New sensor box, awesome. Looks like Leica Summilux Still lens wider than 50mm can be used. Hopefully. Fingers crossed.
 
Thanks Phil for the frequent write-ups—definitely appreciate it. I noticed your images have a nice natural sharpness, is that just the lenses you're using or is there additional sharpness you add in post? Thanks.
 
After my original stress tests (with an earlier Dragon) I'm still more than happy... evan as it was.
I know through my chats with RED since then that it's even better again, and by the time its released (PROPER) it will be better yet again.
Which sounds kind of crazy... as the body I had was good enough all ready !.

I can see your fascination Phil and Chris to dig deeper, which is all the better for the RED community. Great work guys. ! I enjoy the posts.
Keep it up. :)
 
Phil Holland said:
... Promptly afterwards during dinner I was asked why I'm spending so much time researching, studying, and testing this camera out. More specifically they were curious why I was so damn interested in it. ...
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They need a new Ted Schilowitz... I think they found him!

Keep up the great info. Great insights.
 
I personally haven't arrived at what I will ultimately rate this sensor at and what I will consider my optimum shooting range. I need more formal time with it rather than a rushed handheld camera on a side walk and no light meter...

Does it hold highlights better and roll off those highlights in a more pleading, neutral color way? Yes. Does it seem more sensitive? Yes? 3 stops? Not sure for my personal exposure methodology. Whatever I feel it ends up being is fine with me as I can see the improvements immediately and the gains are impactful to my work today.
 
Can I ask how much rolling shutter you are seeing with the Dragon sensor? Thanks very much.
 
paul schefz said:
after looking at them again i would say that the correct exposure would be somewhere else...f11?
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That was my conclusion as well and I was annoyed with myself for missing that exposure iteration. Next time I will be more thorough. And with the newer sensor calibration, more revelant!
 
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