$101,800.00 for basic 8K package

[Kemalettin Sert]

where is the ignore button for Mike?

 

[Phil Holland]

would love to hear opinions from peeps that shoot (and not rent out) on why they upgraded to W...

I'm a human who is not a rental house, though I do rent my gear to productions I shoot on. So I don't know if I fully qualify, but I do work on "all types" of productions really.

My bread and butter is shooting for studios and clients. That's my income and what allows me to continue on my path. I also sell stories and images, which goes hand in hand with my chosen shooting gear. Simply put there's a handful of features I like about Weapon that justify the upgrade.

The short list in no particular order and off the top of my noggin:
- Vastly Improved Black Shading
- Increased Processing Power and Bandwidth/effecting image quality on a positive level (need to test that)
- 1/2 stop more Dynamic Range or 1/2 stop cleaner overall image.
- It appears some new Color Science is on it's way (might effect Epic and Scarlet too)
- It looks like there are improvements to common OLPF and CMOS Artifacts (unclear if this can trickle down to Epic and Scarlet)
- Whatever "Consistent naming and internally accurate timecode" and I can "imagine" something interesting to do with this.
- 3D LUT Support
- ProRes Support
- New Top Fan and new Ventilation Design/Stability
- WiFi on board
- Smaller and Lighter Weight Camera Body
- Newer Modules/Modularity Concept (I dig the striped down camera, a good deal of shoots I do won't even need the BASE EXPANDER)
- New Cable Free bolted on LCD/EVF stuff. A nice and quick to rig shooting package with zero cables.
- New SSD Module Integration without the bloody LEMO Port near that Lens Mount.
- Newer location of the back focus adjustment. Small thing, but a nice thing that doesn't make me take apart my camera if something is "weird".
- Smart OLPFs. I shoot a lot with several OLPFs, this makes this easier and also removes a bit of user error as well.
- Usable Scratch Microphones (need to test, but without a front fan I think this will be a good thing)
- No Front Fan, actually good for really compact lens setups as you need some of that space down there sometimes.

Some of those things relate directly to image quality, some are just "more features". Some completely effect day to day use of the camera, like Black Shading improvements.

I also see the technology RED is deploying in Weapon and can think of a few things that can be added that I'm sure they are working on. There's lots of potential outside of what's been announced because it simply hasn't been developed or perhaps fully implemented yet.

Outside of that, I do want to upgrade to 8K as well. This VistaVision+ resolution on Weapon 8K Dragon is going to be huge (pardon the pun). Lot's of creative possibilities. And I've worked with 70mm 15-perf IMAX, 65mm 5-perf, VistaVision 8-perf, and some other oddities.

However, Weapon 8K Dragon represents a vastly superior, cost effective, and faster workflow than the film options for this larger format. Not to mention in an intensely smaller package.

> some folks bought 100-200K of premium S35 glass. Master Primes etc. This is the glass they wanna shoot on. 8K VV with ur non-matched medium format lenses downsampled won't give the IQ that 5.5-6K w/ Master Primes give u. I'll bet on that. Except of course the difference in the 40mm image plane FOV and perspective.

Yep. The topic of premium S35 glass is "real". And it's exactly that. Designed for S35 coverage. Most Master Primes cover 6K. All cover 5K. And 5.5K is what I tend to shoot the most when I'm using S35 glass these days. Interestingly enough, there are focal lengths of the Master Primes that will cover beyond 6K even, but those are the longer focal lengths.

I have also acquired a matched set of medium format glass, though it took a while to figure that out and how to get there. Though not as fast as Master Primes I have lenses that have as high as a resolving power center frame, field, and outside of field which will be perfect for VistaVision+ shooting. Interestingly enough there's also a few types of Medium Format glass that don't exhibit image shift while focusing, which actually blew my mind.

Zeiss's Master Primes are tremendous and there's nothing to say about that. However, to me their more interesting recent designs fall in the Otus Primes (hybrid motion design) and the Compact Zooms (pure motion design) and these are meant for larger formats. And the Otus Primes are "better" in some ways compared to MPs projected and in practical shooting scenarios. Sadly only two of those exist today, but more are on the way. And one day they will be "housed" properly.

And not to wiggle too much around it, there will be "advantages" of shooting 8K and down sampling for a 4K finish with some of the other more modern lenses.

Honestly though, there's more glass on the way (and there's a good chunk available now as well). I know of at least 3 sets being made right this second that haven't been announced and there's going to be one "important" set in about 2 years.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

'cuz bigger is better. Right? 8K!

Really though, my list pretty much mirrors Phil's. And I could really use the 8K resolution and other aspects of the larger sensor for much of what I do. Of all the new features on Weapon, I think ProRes is the least useful or attractive to me, but that's just not how I work these days.

I'm hoping that by the end of this year and when 8K is getting close, I'll be able to spend more time doing creative stuff of my own.

 

[Stacey Spears]

And not to wiggle too much around it, there will be "advantages" of shooting 8K and down sampling for a 4K finish with some of the other more modern lenses.

I am a big believe in oversampling and the 8k to 4k is a nice scaling ratio. I am excited about the larger frame size and higher resolution. For 4k delivery, I think 8k is the sweet spot. For 8k delivery that would probably make 16k the sweet spot. At this point, when Red goes bigger in the future, I hope they stay at this resolution.

would love to hear opinions from peeps that shoot (and not rent out) on why they upgraded to W...

What I keep thinking about is when I first saw The Dark Knight in a real IMAX theater. The opening scene of the bank robbery had me grabbing my chair. It had such a visceral impact on me. The image was clean, there was so much detail and I actually felt a fear of heights. My heart was racing. The 35mm scenes simply paled in comparison. Even at home, on Blu-ray, the opening scene is visually superior to the rest of the film. Mission Impossible - Ghost Protocol had an even bigger impact. I think my knuckles were white holding onto my chair. Those scenes are burned into my brain, so I am excited about the larger 8k sensor. It is still small compared to the size of real IMAX. At least with the 8k sensor, I have a chance of covering it with my current Otus lenses.

My next major project is a documentary, so I am interested in the new fan/ventilation system. Hoping it is noticeable (or not audible ) improvement on the audio side. My biggest gripe with the 2.0 fan is the high pitched sound. I performed a lot of testing with both front fans and eventually settled on the 2.0 fan. Image quality improvements are welcome. Reducing the CMOS smear would be the biggest improvement I am hoping for. The 1/2 stop improvement is welcome. I currently use the LLO on Dragon and I intend on getting both for Weapon. I also use ADD for all of my work. I like my images to be as clean and noise free as possible. Overall I have been really happy with the OLPF on the Dragon, it is so much better than EPIC MX. There was too much detail lost on EPIC MX IMHO because of its strong OLPF. I am glad Red reduced the strength on Dragon. Hopefully it is equal, or less strong, on Weapon 8K. I know, and appreciate, that some scenarios don't want to capture as much detail and for that you can put a filter in front of the lens to blur the image if you like.

I agree that not having DC in on camera is a bit wonky. I am glad Red has opened up the modules and look forward to the OMOD MINI-TC for its accurate, and wireless, time code and audio input(s).

Obviously the Weapon upgrade price was more than I was expecting and the 8k sensor upgrade being due now did not help. With that said, I did order both.

 

[Mike Quill]

I'm a human who is not a rental house, though I do rent my gear to productions I shoot on. So I don't know if I fully qualify, but I do work on "all types" of productions really.

My bread and butter is shooting for studios and clients. That's my income and what allows me to continue on my path. I also sell stories and images, which goes hand in hand with my chosen shooting gear. Simply put there's a handful of features I like about Weapon that justify the upgrade.

The short list in no particular order and off the top of my noggin:
- Vastly Improved Black Shading
- Increased Processing Power and Bandwidth/effecting image quality on a positive level (need to test that)
- 1/2 stop more Dynamic Range or 1/2 stop cleaner overall image.
- It appears some new Color Science is on it's way (might effect Epic and Scarlet too)
- It looks like there are improvements to common OLPF and CMOS Artifacts (unclear if this can trickle down to Epic and Scarlet)
- Whatever "Consistent naming and internally accurate timecode" and I can "imagine" something interesting to do with this.
- 3D LUT Support
- ProRes Support
- New Top Fan and new Ventilation Design/Stability
- WiFi on board
- Smaller and Lighter Weight Camera Body
- Newer Modules/Modularity Concept (I dig the striped down camera, a good deal of shoots I do won't even need the BASE EXPANDER)
- New Cable Free bolted on LCD/EVF stuff. A nice and quick to rig shooting package with zero cables.
- New SSD Module Integration without the bloody LEMO Port near that Lens Mount.
- Newer location of the back focus adjustment. Small thing, but a nice thing that doesn't make me take apart my camera if something is "weird".
- Smart OLPFs. I shoot a lot with several OLPFs, this makes this easier and also removes a bit of user error as well.
- Usable Scratch Microphones (need to test, but without a front fan I think this will be a good thing)
- No Front Fan, actually good for really compact lens setups as you need some of that space down there sometimes.

Some of those things relate directly to image quality, some are just "more features". Some completely effect day to day use of the camera, like Black Shading improvements.

I also see the technology RED is deploying in Weapon and can think of a few things that can be added that I'm sure they are working on. There's lots of potential outside of what's been announced because it simply hasn't been developed or perhaps fully implemented yet.

Outside of that, I do want to upgrade to 8K as well. This VistaVision+ resolution on Weapon 8K Dragon is going to be huge (pardon the pun). Lot's of creative possibilities. And I've worked with 70mm 15-perf IMAX, 65mm 5-perf, VistaVision 8-perf, and some other oddities.

However, Weapon 8K Dragon represents a vastly superior, cost effective, and faster workflow than the film options for this larger format. Not to mention in an intensely smaller package.




Yep. The topic of premium S35 glass is "real". And it's exactly that. Designed for S35 coverage. Most Master Primes cover 6K. All cover 5K. And 5.5K is what I tend to shoot the most when I'm using S35 glass these days. Interestingly enough, there are focal lengths of the Master Primes that will cover beyond 6K even, but those are the longer focal lengths.

I have also acquired a matched set of medium format glass, though it took a while to figure that out and how to get there. Though not as fast as Master Primes I have lenses that have as high as a resolving power center frame, field, and outside of field which will be perfect for VistaVision+ shooting. Interestingly enough there's also a few types of Medium Format glass that don't exhibit image shift while focusing, which actually blew my mind.

Zeiss's Master Primes are tremendous and there's nothing to say about that. However, to me their more interesting recent designs fall in the Otus Primes (hybrid motion design) and the Compact Zooms (pure motion design) and these are meant for larger formats. And the Otus Primes are "better" in some ways compared to MPs projected and in practical shooting scenarios. Sadly only two of those exist today, but more are on the way. And one day they will be "housed" properly.

And not to wiggle too much around it, there will be "advantages" of shooting 8K and down sampling for a 4K finish with some of the other more modern lenses.

Honestly though, there's more glass on the way (and there's a good chunk available now as well). I know of at least 3 sets being made right this second that haven't been announced and there's going to be one "important" set in about 2 years.

There's just very little on that list that translates into Weapon providing a vastly improved image, which is what I would expect for that kind of cash. I would love the ability to shoot true anamorphic. But for me it's certainly not worth 50k.

Phil, which medium format set did you build?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[David Vandervale]

Not sure how accurate this is.. but here's a decent breakdown on building a basic.. "shootable" package of some sort. Probably biased, but its insight.

http://www.arriblog.com/main/2015/4...-between-the-alexa-mini-and-the-red-weapon-cf

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Not sure how accurate this is.. but here's a decent breakdown on building a basic.. "shootable" package of some sort. Probably biased, but its insight.

http://www.arriblog.com/main/2015/4...-between-the-alexa-mini-and-the-red-weapon-cf

Thank you for this...
ARRIRAW 2.8K 16:9 2880x1620 max 30FPS (with SUP 2.0)
Btw dont forget Alexa mini comes with internal lens control (you dont need to buy 8000$ Arri UMC system)
Redusers will cry over 1080p HDI outputs on Alexa Mini.Recent trend on here is about how come 50K $ camera dont have 4K SDI/HDMI inputs bla bla.

 

[Mike Nagel]

Not sure how accurate this is.. but here's a decent breakdown on building a basic.. "shootable" package of some sort. Probably biased, but its insight.

http://www.arriblog.com/main/2015/4...-between-the-alexa-mini-and-the-red-weapon-cf

while this is true and obviously when u go RED u have to play the AKS game (hence the discussion to keep the prices somewhat in line), I would always prefer the Weapon CF over the Mini... it's just a better cam for the price.

but obviously, RED used to be (much) cheaper than Arri... and better !!! ;-)))

 

[David Vandervale]

Thank you for this...
ARRIRAW 2.8K 16:9 2880x1620 max 30FPS (with SUP 2.0)
Btw dont forget Alexa mini comes with internal lens control (you dont need to buy 8000$ Arri UMC system)
Redusers will cry over 1080p HDI outputs on Alexa Mini.Recent trend on here is about how come 50K $ camera dont have 4K SDI/HDMI inputs bla bla.

Oh snap! Can the Dragon/Weapon output 4K? I only saw that the base expander has one 3G-SDI out, so I assumed it couldn't. The Mini has two 6G-SDI outputs, but also can't do 4K. From what I've seen on recorders like Atomos and such, 4K can only go through one cable if it's a 12G port.

 

[Humberto Rivera]

I’m sitting here reading all the commentaries and opinions about the “Red Digital Cinema Company”, and whether or not the camera “will-do-this-or-the-other” or whether 8K is too much, whether it’s a good “Return on Investment”, BUT I think we’re missing the main point, the “Red Dragon Weapon/Stealth 8K Carbon Fiber Camera”, THAT IS, if you don’t mind the price, put you in the “Major Leagues”, Red will manufacture it to be the “World” best “Motion Picture Camera” for any use, whether it be a major “Motion Picture Film” or cover a “Television Event in 4K/UHD” so whether it’s 4K/UHD, 6K, or 8K! It “will-do-it-all”; you could fill the entire “aspect ratio” of “40.93 mm X 21.91 mm” to the maximum coverage or a much smaller “aspect ratio” that will fit within your needs, on it’s all inclusive sensor, for whatever your reasons.

The improvements for the filmmaker continue on such things like steadying the camera movement of a Steadicam though frame correction because you have the extra space without compromising a 4K/UHD or DCI Release; use the extra height for “Anamorphic Lenses Coverage”; the 40 mm X 20 mm “aspect ratio” of 2.1 that Victorio Storato talked so much about throughout his life and continues to do-so, and is ideal the “Aspect Ratio” for Television Broadcast; how much it helps for a generous IMAX coverage to be released to the “IMAX Theatrical Movie Audience”; taking beautiful “Still Photographs’”; or anything that might occur to you. It’s your choice! What is exciting about that, you can do-it all at once, all at the same time, think about that for a while.

I’m not saying that it will be a good ROI “on-the-short-run”, BUT IT MIGHT BE, but in MY OPINION it will be on the long run, THAT’S JUST ME! My recommendation; “Take it down a few notches” on the blab, blab, blab. To those who are the most vocal about its inadequacies, compare it against all other cameras on the market, not all of you are in that negative category, JUST MY OPINION! There are lot of things that make this camera the best one that Red has ever produce, look at the may post by people like Phil Holland who have contributed to the “general-effort-to-help-keep-the-ship-strait”; they made a genuine contribution.

This is not the ONLY improvement from the “Red Digital Cinema Company”; these are just the CURRENT IMPROVEMENT. Have a nice day, because better days are ahead, and that’s NOT SAYING TODAY is not a good day. Film production in 35 mm Film is on its last breathe, it was a good ride, it lasted for over 100 years, now is time to let go, we still have a “niche business” it’s very hard to let go for some, but with the introduction of the “Red Dragon Weapon/Stealth 8K Carbon Fiber Camera” may it eventually Rest In Peace.

Humberto Rivera

 

[Ivan Kovax]

Hmmm. A7s is VistaVision.

So is the 5D. Kind of.

 

[Humberto Rivera]

TO QUOTE FROM BEFORE; "I’m sitting here reading all the commentaries and opinions about the “Red Digital Cinema Company”, and whether or not the camera “will-do-this-or-the-other” or whether 8K is too much, whether it’s a good “Return on Investment”, BUT I think we’re missing the main point, the “Red Dragon Weapon/Stealth 8K Carbon Fiber Camera”, THAT IS, if you don’t mind the price, put you in the “Major Leagues”, Red will manufacture it to be the “World” best “Motion Picture Camera” for any use, whether it be a major “Motion Picture Film” or cover a “Television Event in 4K/UHD” so whether it’s 4K/UHD, 6K, or 8K! It “will-do-it-all”; you could fill the entire “aspect ratio” of “40.93 mm X 21.91 mm” to the maximum coverage or a much smaller “aspect ratio” that will fit within your needs, on it’s all inclusive sensor, for whatever your reasons.

The improvements for the filmmaker continue on such things like steadying the camera movement of a Steadicam though frame correction because you have the extra space without compromising a 4K/UHD or DCI Release; use the extra height for “Anamorphic Lenses Coverage”; the 40 mm X 20 mm “aspect ratio” of 2.1 that Victorio Storato talked so much about throughout his life and continues to do-so, and is ideal the “Aspect Ratio” for Television Broadcast; how much it helps for a generous IMAX coverage to be released to the “IMAX Theatrical Movie Audience”; taking beautiful “Still Photographs’”; or anything that might occur to you. It’s your choice! What is exciting about that, you can do-it all at once, all at the same time, think about that for a while.

I’m not saying that it will be a good ROI “on-the-short-run”, BUT IT MIGHT BE, but in MY OPINION it will be on the long run, THAT’S JUST ME! My recommendation; “Take it down a few notches” on the blab, blab, blab. To those who are the most vocal about its inadequacies, compare it against all other cameras on the market, not all of you are in that negative category, JUST MY OPINION! There are lot of things that make this camera the best one that Red has ever produce, look at the may post by people like Phil Holland who have contributed to the “general-effort-to-help-keep-the-ship-strait”; they made a genuine contribution.

This is not the ONLY improvement from the “Red Digital Cinema Company”; these are just the CURRENT IMPROVEMENT. Have a nice day, because better days are ahead, and that’s NOT SAYING TODAY is not a good day. Film production in 35 mm Film is on its last breathe, it was a good ride, it lasted for over 100 years, now is time to let go, we still have a “niche business” it’s very hard to let go for some, but with the introduction of the “Red Dragon Weapon/Stealth 8K Carbon Fiber Camera” may it eventually Rest In Peace."

NEW REMARKS; I just wanted to add one more thing to what I said above. No matter who is ahead, Red will always be in the leading position, like “Lido Anthony "Lee" Iacocca” use to say (paraphrasing); “Either lead, follow, or get out of the way!” I think that what red has been doing for the past few years, that they put the “Hurt” on many companies that thought they owned the “Motion Picture Industry” and could dictate how fast and how much they would advance, Red change the rules, and that makes them all uncomfortable. That’s life!

Humberto Rivera

 

[Humberto Rivera]

JUST TO ADD ONE MORE THING; I personally think that the entire “Motion Picture Industry” did change, and it was the fear of “Digital Itself” that left many “Directors of Photography” searching for a way to go, without seemingly not being sure footed about the whole thing. It was a painful process for everyone. As they became more knowledgeable in their numbers, we began to see a push toward Arriflex with people like Roger Dearkins, I’m sure he is dreaming of the Arriflex 65; but the early models of the “Red Digital Company”, was driven by the Film Directors themselves, it was the Directors that insisted on the “Red Camera”, people like Peter Jackson, Steven Soderbergh, David Fincher, Tony Scott, Robert Zemeckis and many, many more of their ilk, there were some “Director of Photography” that also took a chance on red, but it was primarily the “Film Directors”.

Compared to the slow movement of the Industry, Red seem like it was moving at the speed of light, that’s one of the reasons for their success, and their slow recognition by the Industry, but that’s changing, ever so slow. And that what led to the creation of the; “Red Dragon Weapon/Stealth 8K Carbon Fiber Camera”!

Humberto Rivera

 

[David Mullen ASC]

So is the 5D. Kind of.

And the Sony NEXVG900

 

[Craig Parkes]

Here's the thing about Weapon - companies catered to the high end of camera performance in the film world as well. Film cameras weren't cheap new - and specialist film cameras were even less cheap to buy.

Some segments of the film production world will never simply be 'cheap' because of technology. IF Red were to release an IMAX scaled sensor in a camera tomorrow, lots of people may want it, but lots of people wouldn't buy it -because they wouldn't have glass for it.

Now, there was a demand for 35mm qualities that exceeded supply/was limited by physical production cost - this was proven by the whole DOF adapter movement etc. I don't know if that's the same for 8K VistaVision sensor at the moment, I imagine the people who really want to shoot 8K VistaVision are the people who also really need to shoot VistaVision on 35mm for films - the people for whom the current offerings genuinely aren't good enough for what they are trying to achieve.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

For me weapon is this, and worth the money to get:

The same great dynamic range, true 16 bit recording, faster (near global) shutter, improved (near perfect) IR handling, better out of the box color and improved sensitivity of teh LL OLPF Dragon, but, according to Jared's post:

- No more gate shadow
- No more CMOS smear
- No more orbs around bright lights.

This is awesome.

That said, it will have to be a rental for us. For the kinds of shoots Amber and I do (we also direct most of the time) our prep and post times are just too long, so we shoot too few days, to amortize vs insurance + depreciation. Rental is the better financial option. But I actually like a return to the rental model. I can let someone else worry about maintenance and upgrades, and rent when I have a gig.

 

[Marc Wielage]

That said, it will have to be a rental for us. For the kinds of shoots Amber and I do (we also direct most of the time) our prep and post times are just too long, so we shoot too few days, to amortize vs insurance + depreciation. Rental is the better financial option. But I actually like a return to the rental model. I can let someone else worry about maintenance and upgrades, and rent when I have a gig.

I think this makes a lot of sense. I also totally agree that the myriad of other improvements within Weapon are actually more important than the 8K resolution.

 

[Humberto Rivera]

I was thinking. Why would the “Red Digital Company” succeed? Why will no one else do anything about it, why? The answer lies in the U. S. Patent Office which awarded to its inventors James Jannard and Thomas Graeme Nattrress, the R3D REDCODE File Patent, in the name of their Company, NO ONE ELSE BOTHER TO QUESTION IT OR OBJECT TO IT, silly them, for whatever their reasons, that’s a decision that will live forever! I have said this over and over again, THEY HAVE TO COME UP (Sony, Arri, or whoever) with ANOTHER ORIGINAL METHOD of creating an image ONTO A DIGITAL SENSOR, that no one can challenge, and that my friend it’s what Red is all about. Red does its OWN SENSOR, and goes through the proper ASCI procedure, that’s a hard act to beat. So the Patent on the R3D REDCODE Files is the BEGINNING AND END of the story. You can “BET THE FARM” on that; Red will continue to move forward, without any real challenges for many, many years to come.

Graeme has come a long way since the Red One, but think about it, WILL HE EVER STOP no he WILL NOT, and one day the camera with its R3D REDCODE File will have a pristine 65 mm Image (the 15 perforation kind) that will work, and will work even better than anything you can imagine, that’s the future of Red, I’ll say it again the; R3D REDCODE File! They did not asked anyone what they thought on their ROI, whether they had paid for all those Arriflex Camera or not, they just did-it! So who are the winners, for one; The Audience of today and the Future; the Filmmakers all over the World; the poor Producer that is going around the world with a script and maybe a star attached to-it (maybe)! All because the R3D REDCODE File!

Humberto Rivera

 

[Mike P.]

Yeah, but I can see why a lot of current Dragon owners would consider those 'improvements' to be more 'fixes' for problems that shouldn't be there on the current Dragon cameras. And because RED is being mum on whether or not those solutions can be implemented on Epic/Scarlet Dragon, I can see why some people are a little frustrated/anxious (and that's for either 6k or 8k Weapon).

I, too, think that 8k resolution isn't really necessary (I would take a 6k FF35/VV sensor; potentially better low-light/saturation to boot), but I wouldn't complain about it. I think the sensor size is the major draw, not the actual 8k though. That said, I'm very interested to see some 8k/VV landscapes and such...

 

[Humberto Rivera]

Mike, that’s is an interesting way of putting it; 'improvements' or 'fixes' on the current Dragon Camera, whatever you call it they have improve the Dragon Weapon – Stealth Camera. You don’t have to do anything if you own a Dragon Camera, just wait and see what happens. The sensor “it’s what it is”, they are just making it bigger for 8K and putting the 6K sensor on a better Camera, and they have added additional functionality to it. But the beauty of the whole thing is that you don’t have to do anything at all if you own a Dragon. If I remember right, Red has always said that this was an upgrade to the Dragon Camera. So we wait! And I you don’t just buy a new camera for about $100,000.00 take or give a few thousand dollars, that all.

Humberto Rivera