Birger Lens Mount Reservations

[J.Burger]

The good thing is most of you just want a Solution and do not care where its from, and that is the same viewpoint we have... the faster that happens, the better off everyone will be.

Yooo.. that may be very very true, still it should be a fair solution for all involved parties… respect is part of the game…



your will work it out now…I’m sure… will I find some sleep now?

 

[Mark Phelan]

Having a camera that allows various mounts AND enables the use of the internal motors of still lenses would be to everyone's benefit. It should be considered for Scarlet and Epic also. I know everyone has a personal bent from their own camp, but the modular design of all the various permutations of the Red cameras should include a modular lens mount in keeping with the spirit of the original concept. My $0.02 worth.

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

The FIRE that started from the i-pin cable shorting out kinda points out something bad happening apart from just the overload.

Typically all people with technical background know that a change in magnetic field through a galvanic loops induces a current in this loop. However, what is not often recognized is that cutting the loop does not yet prevent from damages. For, the change in magnetic flux across a surface induces an electromotive force (emf) along the boundary of that surface. Now, if the "loop" (the boundary of the surface) is conductive except in a small gap, there will be a very big electric field in this gap (for the emf within the galvanic conductor is almost zero, so all the electric field "concentrates" in the gap).

So, if the either pin of the i-cable is grounded and it is close to the grounded camera/mount body, in principle it is possible that the (change in magnetic flux due to the) high speed digital electronics generated, or the (loop-)connection to the RS-232 port generated an unfortunate grounding loop and high electric field in some tiny gap causing a "fire", i.e. discharge.

Such design flaws are often difficult to find. Once had to sort out such a case, when a high inductance magnet blew the thermostat of a water filled radiator.

Jarred, what about staying cool. There's mutual frustration at both, or at all three sides, but focusing on that does not help.

 

[paul engstrom]

I'm not sure if this thread is more like a family or soap opera, but i'm addicted to it. Each time I look at it my emotions go one way, then the other.

So many of us have so much invested in this--it just amps everything up.

its good to see solution oriented posts

p

 

[Mark Crabtree]

Birger Mount

Birger Mount

Birger has worked out the electronics and software to dynamically control EF lens aperture and focus. Remote focus knob and blue tooth. Birger is WAY ahead of the game. As soon as we get these warranty issues dealt with . . .

 

[Kenn Christenson]

Birger has worked out the electronics and software to dynamically control EF lens aperture and focus. Remote focus knob and blue tooth. Birger is WAY ahead of the game. As soon as we get these warranty issues dealt with . . .

EXACTLY! I don't see these features in ANY of the "competition's mounts." Especially for the price!

 

[Adam Levins]

no worries man... i dont mean to sound grumpy im just kinda getting tired of this whole issue. There seems to be a few people that seem to have alternative motives and keep pointing at RED, and I just dont know how many times I can say the same thing.

The good thing is most of you just want a Solution and do not care where its from, and that is the same viewpoint we have... the faster that happens, the better off everyone will be.

You did not sound grumpy at all dude. You have been great! It is awesome that I can be on other side of the pond (in the UK) and get this feedback from You and RED.

A few years ago when I had a DVX I used to post on DVXuser, and you were always very helpful there as well. but it was different as you didn't have the direct connection or influence with Panasonic that you have at RED.

As a cameraman I really appreciate being involved in the process. It's quite fun actually. I like to build my own lights at times; but this sort of technology is not something I can do in my garage.

I like the Birger because it I think it is innovative which is the same reason I like the RED.

Cine lenses have a huge history which has created a strange cult around them; especially with focus pullers, who lets face it end up being blamed if something goes wrong. I have shot with some of the best, but I think there is a differently room to think outside the box in terms of lenses when it comes to the RED.

The innovation comes down to the fact that you guys are so willing to forget old conventions and explore the possibility's.

That is exciting!

 

[Joel Kaye]

The good thing is most of you just want a Solution and do not care where its from, and that is the same viewpoint we have... the faster that happens, the better off everyone will be.

I'm all for the "faster" part of the equation.

Does someone else have the ability to control EF lenses with a FF? If the product is imminent let's see it.

 

[Thor Wixom]

no worries man... i dont mean to sound grumpy im just kinda getting tired of this whole issue. There seems to be a few people that seem to have alternative motives and keep pointing at RED, and I just dont know how many times I can say the same thing.

The good thing is most of you just want a Solution and do not care where its from, and that is the same viewpoint we have... the faster that happens, the better off everyone will be.

Jarred,

Your presence here is very appreciated. Please don't forget that.

As far as I can tell, the Red team have been reasonable in their efforts to deal with all of this... all the way from picking up the tab on the "guinea pig" camera, to considering the options at hand.

I think it is wise to let the past be the past. What matters now are the solutions we find in the present and the future.

My 2 cents is that the IMS seems to quell most of the concerns, if the Birger can be adapted to it.

I'm very glad to hear that you're in favor of looking into it.

I have a Birger on order... would it help to take delivery of it and send it to Red?

-Thor

 

[Michael Hastings]

I hate to disagree with you.. but you only have the story half right. The FIRE that started from the i-pin cable shorting out kinda points out something bad happening apart from just the overload. Also, It was clear that the guidlines the Erik called out for wrapping and protecting the cable were not followed... pointing to your technician.

I dont mean to call you out man... you know we love you, but your posts are more and more trying to point the finger at RED..

Okay, I'll buy that - my guy said he was pretty careful - but (notwithstanding the possibility Lauri brought up-which is way beyond me:biggrin I didn't even see the camera, much less the parts since the camera was in LA, and I'm happy to stipulate that we shorted the i/cable. I'm really NOT trying to point the finger at RED. There's two points, neither of which points a finger at Red:

1) The i/cable situation is easy, Red Owners: Don't screw up the install and mess up the i/cable because it might hurt the camera, and it isn't RED's fault so it isn't going to be free. Which I agree with, (Sorry, guys I used up the freebie. And thanks, again Jarred I really do owe you a big one) OR JUST REMOVE THE i/cable. Might be as easy as carefully snipping the individual wires at the exit hole and putting on a shrinktube cap, but everyone has also agreed they would be willing to pay to have RED or a factory certified technician do it or even remove it internally. This would mean switching back and forth from RED PL, to Birger, OR IMS would be just a mechanical task - safe and simple with no electronic implications.

And 2)

I was really just trying to get to the point that we think the problem with Birger, which had to be fixed, was it was frying the RS232 circuit and that had already been fixed as far as the overdraw (which obviously RED would needs to have demonstrated) and also MOVED to the more robust power circuit.

I apologize if it seemed like I was trying to backhandedly accuse RED of having a poor circuit design - I see now how some people could take it that way. I think that it really originated from the accelerated expectations I/we get from being on this board - several of your posts went by with no answer to the proposals of #1 so you wonder why and I drifted off into speculation and was trying to make clear that it doesn't matter - we wouldn't be using those things with Birger and virtually none of us care about those circuits.

I really don't have any other big agenda other than these two things:

We just want to be able to use THE MOST SOPHISTICATED, VERSATILE OPTICS ON THE PLANET - THOSE FROM CANON, NIKON, SIGMA, etc.. While pl cine lenses may have SLIIIIIIIIIGHTLY better optics NONE OF THEM COME CLOSE in terms of cost effectiveness, built-in image stabilization, and built-in remote controllable iris and focus motors.

I do have an ulterior motive. It is that there are probably 25, maybe as many as 50 pro shooters in the world that have enough underwater shoots to justify purchasing a RED and a Superwide PL, PL macro and other PL lenses and the expensive and complicated gearing that they require. But there are probably 300 to 1000 that could potentially stretch up to a RED with birger and a top quality $600-1500 SLR lens and no gearing needed even as they switch to long macro and other lenses. And the remote capability actually opens up some other industrial, scientific, and military applications that would never consider PL lenses. But these things would also benefit RED with REDONE purchases.

These shooters are going to buy something, there is a cycle that happens every few years and the Z1/HVX200 has run its course. For them the Sony EX1 and even the HVX successors are potent options and they will buy housings, but they will be a bit more spread out among AquaVideo and the other 4 or 5 housing manufacturers. I've put about 9 months of my eggs into the RED/Birger basket and have a bit of a competitive advantage, AND I REALLY DO LIKE THE POTENTIAL OF THE REDONE, so I want this to succeed.

PS I don't have much personal use for IMS, but it does seem pretty sexy.

PPS. I have a personal relationship with Erik through a bunch of phone calls, but it's not like we are bosom buddies. Missed this earlier, but it sums up the bottom line.

Birger has worked out the electronics and software to dynamically control EF lens aperture and focus. Remote focus knob and blue tooth. Birger is WAY ahead of the game. As soon as we get these warranty issues dealt with . . .

PPPS. And Jarred I don't think you've been grumpy today, or that you were calling me out unfairly. However frustrated I may be that even one more day goes by (deadlines approaching...ugh) it's all part of the process. I know you have a job to do and making sure I/we all play fair is part of it. But even more importantly I know RED is much more than a job for you - and I TOTALLY respect that.

 

[Harmonica]

I saw that too but assumed that statement was made before the warranty issue of last week.

I might be wrong.

By the way I have emailed P+S but if anyone knows the price of there mount please post it.

This would be a good solution, but it will come at a additional cost.

Yeah, I'm interested to know the price as well.

I know this has already been said many times by many people, but I'd just like to echo the fact that an IMS/Birger/Red solution would benefit everyone. Not only would all the Birger thread junkies be able to go back to living their lives, but all three companies would also sell more product.

On the other hand, if this issue isn't resolved, all three companies stand to lose business. (Especially Birger!)

It would be in the interest of any of the three companies involved to take some initiative and get things in motion. What are y'all waiting for?!?!

 

[Kenn Christenson]

The P+S interchangeable mount system is $2,325 - U.S.D. Not really a workable solution - since I'll be spending over a grand on the Birger - I've spent over $2K+ on the lenses- another grand and I could get a Red lens!

I'd sure appreciate it if we could keep our eyes on the ball and just get the Birger Canon mount working (with some sort of warranty solution) AND shipping!

 

[Frank Weeks]

I'd sure appreciate it if we could keep our eyes on the ball and just get the Birger Canon mount working (with some sort of warranty solution) AND shipping!

amen..

 

[jaadgy akanni]

The P+S interchangeable mount system is $2,325 - U.S.D. Not really a workable solution - since I'll be spending over a grand on the Birger - I've spent over $2K+ on the lenses- another grand and I could get a Red lens!

I'd sure appreciate it if we could keep our eyes on the ball and just get the Birger Canon mount working (with some sort of warranty solution) AND shipping!

I agree; at that price, the P+S IMS is not the sensible way to go. Come to think of it, there's no need for Birger to marry their design to that of the P+S IMS, so I take back what I said earlier. How patronizing of me. My apologies to Erik; had a weak moment back there...lol. What Erik will do is use his brilliant mind and do a minor redesign of the mount, and voila!- we'll have a reason to smile again. Jarred is right, we worry too much. Take my mom's advice "don't go drowing in a glass of water"

 

[Thor Wixom]

The P+S interchangeable mount system is $2,325 - U.S.D. Not really a workable solution - since I'll be spending over a grand on the Birger - I've spent over $2K+ on the lenses- another grand and I could get a Red lens!

Not true.

I just got an email from P+S.

The IMS for the Red is 680 Euros, so $1063.93 according to http://www.dollars2euro.com.

I find this to be an INCREDIBLY low price to be able to mount ANY type of lens to the Red... now if we could just determine if the Birger is compatible.

-Thor

 

[Tico Llaurador]

I'd sure appreciate it if we could keep our eyes on the ball and just get the Birger Canon mount working (with some sort of warranty solution) AND shipping!

And with the knobs! Oh... and yes, without voiding the RED One warranty!

:ranting2:

 

[LEON]

Not true.

I just got an email from P+S.

The IMS for the Red is 680 Euros, so $1063.93 according to http://www.dollars2euro.com.

I find this to be an INCREDIBLY low price to be able to mount ANY type of lens to the Red... now if we could just determine if the Birger is compatible.

-Thor

And I read this on their site, did something happened ?
or do they let you install yourself their mount and you do not have to pay for work, only parts ?


"Prices and delivery time
The costs for the parts and the integration of the P+S Technik IMS camera front onto the RED One will be 1.500,00 Euro including all necessary, high quality mechanical components and working hours of our qualified service technicians. The IMS camera front for the RED One can be ordered under the article number # 24209.
The customer has to pay the costs for shipping as well as shipping insurance.
The P+S Technik IMS camera front will be available from June 2008. For orders please contact P+S Technik sales department info@pstechnik.de. Modifications by appointment can take from 3 to 7 days plus shipping time.
RED One manufacturer warranty
P+S TECHNIK is starting a dialogue with RED about a possible cooperation regarding the P+S Technik IMS camera front for the RED One.
Important notice
P+S Technik is only modifying RED One cameras which has been tested by the owner. We do not accept new cameras that have not been checked by the owner. Nevertheless P+S Technik does not assume liability for any electronic difficulties, which occur before, during or after the modification of the camera."

So what is to be believed ?

 

[jbeale]

reality check

reality check

So, if the either pin of the i-cable is grounded and it is close to the grounded camera/mount body, in principle it is possible that the (change in magnetic flux due to the) high speed digital electronics generated, or the (loop-)connection to the RS-232 port generated an unfortunate grounding loop and high electric field in some tiny gap causing a "fire", i.e. discharge.

Such design flaws are often difficult to find. Once had to sort out such a case, when a high inductance magnet blew the thermostat of a water filled radiator.

Well... if you are working with truly large magnets, such as used in MRI scanners with Tesla-range fields, or particle accelerators, etc. then I agree you could get a spark and maybe a fire. Or a smaller assembly with a huge number of turns, like an automotive spark coil or a tesla coil. But if you do the math to determine what EMF is induced by a few turns of wire around typical computer hardware, even with worst-case assumptions I think you'll find that you are many orders of magnitude short of a real spark.

If there was melted insulation or an actual fire, I believe the only plausible source is DC current overload, most commonly a short.

 

[Tico Llaurador]

So what is to be believed ?

Jean Luc, what you quote there is from an older piece. That's been superseded by the other parts which you may have found in the latter parts of the thread.

Look for Sanjin's posts. He's become the P+S Technik liaison at large.

 

[LEON]

Jean Luc, what you quote there is from an older piece. That's been superseded by the other parts which you may have found in the latter parts of the thread.

Look for Sanjin's posts. He's become the P+S Technik liaison at large.

Sorry, I am so surprised when price of anything goes down !
Thank you for the good news,
forgive me not to read ALL posts about our favorite virtual mount !