RED V-Raptor [X] 8K VV

[Phil Holland]

Hi everybody, just got my hands on the new Raptor X and played around with the EH Option.

Maybe I miss something, but when I am using RED Cine X (Beta Version 62) I could switch the EH Option ON/OFF, but the histogram nearly changed like nothing to sometimes very minimal. When I toggle the EH Option in camera I could see a way more visible change in the histogram.

And when I playback any kind of Raptor X Clips via RED Cine X, all clips seems to be double playback speed. (2x faster) .

When I playback files filmed with the Raptor X ( without EH option recorded, because they doesn't work at all for now ) in Davinci Resolve the are playing back at normal speed.

Any idea somebody !?

Will very much depend on each shot and how you use it. If you're filming at ISO 800, you're already getting around 8 stops above 18% gray. With Extended Highlights you're getting an additional 3 stops or so above that.

If you want to "stress test it", bring you're ISO down to say 250 where you'll have less stops above 18% gray and clip, then toggle EH on.

Ideally this is a tool best served on hot in frame sources and objects. Will share more info on that shortly.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Yes this EH thing is still in super dark.I don't know how it affects motion and other stuff.Waiting for a proper test from CVP and CineD.

 

[Brian Timmons]

Well, what you say is sortof true, but misses the larger point. Which is that their tests are STANDARD. They are one entity, doing ALL the tests the same way. Sure, RED can post an image of a Xyla chart, but they aren't telling us what the SNR is, or what other protocol they may have used. For me, the CineD tests are invaluable, as they are all the same. I don't have to rely on one manufacturer saying "X number of stops" against another manufacturer's "Y number of stops." That's the whole point ... it's a standard.

Regarding highlight recovery, I think they covered it very thoroughly, and accurately. Going from being a non-RED owner to a RED owner, I found that everything they published was true, and most importantly, true relative to how they had evaluated my previous camera.

Again, that's the whole ballgame ... a STANDARD test. Yes, these are creative tools, but they exist in the physical world and have definable physical traits.

Yes- agree on standards but everyone does not agree on CineD's standard.

CineD apparently requires full color channel information to be present for it to be counted.
That's a good gold standard to have and bless them for having it but others would still consider that same wedge in the highlights countable since there is still detail present despite not having all of the color information.

I would definitely prefer the best of any circumstance but will give consideration to something that is less than ideal if I still think I can get the job done and the desired look.

I (and others) found that part of the test findings and the disregard of that last stop in the highlights as somewhat misleading in their final chart findings.
CineD did explain their methodology, others voiced their disagreement, and life moved on.
I still think CineD (among others) is a valuable resource and am glad to have them around.

My greater point is to take each of these tests in consideration to one's own standard based on their experience, values, aesthetics, etc and draw conclusions accordingly.
By all means I encourage people to choose what works best for them.
This craft (and life) has a way of letting one know how their choices are working in the real world and this is no different.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[JudgeNick]

I (and others) found that part of the test findings and the disregard of that last stop in the highlights as somewhat misleading in their final chart findings.

But, they didn't disregard them. In fact their IMATEST results INCLUDE that stop, so they made a textual note regarding that calculation, and they made both a visual demonstration of how that recovered highlight showed up in their test on a human face, as well as a comment on how it may in fact be useful for other scenarios, just as you described. They mention that perhaps it would be helpful in recovering things like sky details where full color information may not be 100% necessary.

I don't understand your objection. They presented the data objectively, they demonstrated visually how the recovery works, and even included commentary from RED on the subject. It sounds like you have more of an emotional objection because you "want" them to count the recovered stop.

Don't get me wrong. I JUST bought a V-Raptor, and just two hours ago took delivery of its upgraded X form. I adore this camera. But to claim that it natively has more stops than CineD measured would be incorrect. Having used multiple cameras they tested, I can corroborate that the CineD results have excellent predictive value.

 

[JudgeNick]

It's HERE! I got some rigging assistance from a very special helper.

 

[Brian Timmons]

I don't understand your objection. They presented the data objectively, they demonstrated visually how the recovery works, and even included commentary from RED on the subject. It sounds like you have more of an emotional objection because you "want" them to count the recovered stop.

For clarity- the below is a link to CineD's waveform for the V-Raptor test.

CineD made a video discussing their methodology and test results below.

Stated a difference of opinion to what Cine D counted from said methodology and stated my own approach.
I have no want or need regarding CineD's test of RED's V-Raptor.
I don't own a V-Raptor but am happily using a trio of Komodo and Komodo X.

If there was a point of anything I wrote about this is I balance outside tests with my own observations.
I also believe everyone chooses what works best for them.
Would love to be able to do my own wedge tests but XYLA 21 charts go for over $4K and I can honestly put that money into other areas that affect my bottom line and leave those tests to others that can afford it and look through their findings.

With all of that said....
Please enjoy your V-Raptor X with the little one.
I trust you will push the camera to great results.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[JudgeNick]

For clarity- the below is a link to CineD's waveform for the V-Raptor test.
CineD made a video discussing their methodology and test results below.

Yes, I know. My point is it's unfair to say they "disregard" constructed highlights. On the graph you posted, they don't explicitly count it. On their IMATEST results, it's there. In the text, they go to great lengths discussing why they don't count it as a full and complete stop. Then they also demonstrate visually what you can expect from that data.

There's no problem validating external data against your own experience, that's the scientific method after all. But I find your comments about the CineD tests to be without merit. To each his own.

 

[JudgeNick]

Here's my relatively pointless but very cute unboxing and first rigging video. If you're into that kind of thing, here it is:

 

[Phil Holland]

Refreshing as this is much of what I've been up to for the past few weeks and CVP is right where I am with X essentially:

 

[rand thompson]

Here are just some Screengrabs of the RED V-Raptor 8K VV[X] vs the ARRI ALEXA 35 at +5,+6 and +7 Over with the "EXTENDED HIGHLIGHTS" Mode turned "ON" and "OFF" in the RED V-Raptor 8K VV[X].



+5 Stops Over with "EH" Mode turned "OFF"

+6 Stops Over with "EH" Mode turned "OFF"

+7 Stops Over with "EH" Mode turned "OFF"

+5 Stops Over with "EH" Mode turned "ON"

+6 Stops Over with "EH" Mode turned "ON"

+7 Stops Over with "EH" Mode turned "ON"

 

[rand thompson]

Screengrabs of the RED V-Raptor 8K VV [X] vs the RED V-Raptor 8K VV[X] at +4, +5,+6 and +7 Over with the "EXTENDED HIGHLIGHTS" Mode turned "ON" in RED V-Raptor 8K VV [X] against the RED V-Raptor 8K VV[X] turned "OFF"



+4 Stops Over with "EH" Mode turned "ON" on the RED V-Raptor 8K VV[X]

+5 Stops Over with "EH" Mode turned "ON" on the RED V-Raptor 8K VV[X]

+6 Stops Over with "EH" Mode turned "ON" on the RED V-Raptor 8K VV[X]

+7 Stops Over with "EH" Mode turned "ON" on the RED V-Raptor 8K VV[X]

 

[Patrick Tresch]

I wonder if CineD will accept the EH on as a valid soution for their DR test. Usually they don't.
But I'm impressed by the color rendition of it. The colors in the highlights look much more natural than on the Alexa35.

 

[rand thompson]

Screengrab of the RED V-Raptor 8K VV [X] with "EH" Mode turned "OFF" exposed for MIDDLE GREY "0" vs the RED V-Raptor 8K VV[X] with "EH" Mode turned "ON" exposed +7 "OVER".

 

[Chris Bouchard]

Phantom Track

So today I spent some time at ROE testing this new feature. I'm writing about it here, because this workflow will 100% be new to people.

How Phantom Track works in camera is when enabled, it halves your max frame rate and is recording two separate streams back to back.

Can the Phantom track be recorded at a different shutter speed to the main track?

i.e. 180 at 24 + phantom 45d at 24? We need this for high end film VP projects... to ensure the ghost frames are 'too fast to see' ;-)

This is a potentially revolutionary camera for VP...

 

[Phil Holland]

Can the Phantom track be recorded at a different shutter speed to the main track?

i.e. 180 at 24 + phantom 45d at 24? We need this for high end film VP projects... to ensure the ghost frames are 'too fast to see' ;-)

This is a potentially revolutionary camera for VP...

At the moment it's the same shutterspeed on both tracks, but you can tune Ghostframe to be "no visible flicker". That was one of the things I was testing. Essentially having magenta and green on each signal, what our eyes see can be either "white" or a single color depending on how you set that up.

Might do a writeup with further info, but having ROE's engineers there was pretty nice. Lots of experiments to find where and how things work, various frame rates, and workflows on the wall itself.

 

[Chris Bouchard]

At the moment it's the same shutterspeed on both tracks, but you can tune Ghostframe to be "no visible flicker". That was one of the things I was testing. Essentially having magenta and green on each signal, what our eyes see can be either "white" or a single color depending on how you set that up.

Might do a writeup with further info, but having ROE's engineers there was pretty nice. Lots of experiments to find where and how things work, various frame rates, and workflows on the wall itself.

Thanks! Saw a demo at BSC today. Sure is an impressive capability.

A faster shutter on the phantom slice vs regular slice might be a nice add to enable flicker free (to the talent) ghostframe at regular 24.

I also think this faster shutter could be simply amazing for stills. Most excited about this for VP actually! Genlocked 8k stills at higher shutter speeds- sharp motion stills ‘for free’ would be great in the volume!

 

[Phil Holland]

Thanks! Saw a demo at BSC today. Sure is an impressive capability.

A faster shutter on the phantom slice vs regular slice might be a nice add to enable flicker free (to the talent) ghostframe at regular 24.

I also think this faster shutter could be simply amazing for stills. Most excited about this for VP actually! Genlocked 8k stills at higher shutter speeds- sharp motion stills ‘for free’ would be great in the volume!

I agree about stills. With Ghostframe in it's current implementation though you should not have flicker. That is adjustable via Ghostframe itself.

 

[Chris Bouchard]

I agree about stills. With Ghostframe in its current implementation though you should not have flicker. That is adjustable via Ghostframe itself.

Thanks Phil! Yeah Ghostframe is clever but so far all demos of it have cameras running at 60fps, more aimed for broadcast, which makes it viable without flicker because the hidden frames are running at least at 120fps (including the Raptor X at BSC last week

And think it could be game changing with this camera if the shutter speed of the phantom track was independent of the main track…

With that you could shoot VP at 24 with 180 shutter & capture a ghost framed greenscreen at e.g. a 90 degree shutter at the same time; and without giving anyone an epileptic fit.

The problem is ghostframe hides the greenscreen slice by running the wall at 4x frame rate (2 frames of main image, 1 frame greenscreen, 1 frame magenta screen is what tricks the eye). So the shutter has to be open a shorter time to catch that ghost frame cleanly. (Of course motion blur will also be different and frame will be temporarily out of sync too, but this can still be viable for VFX)

So yeah I’m super keen to ask Red folks if that phantom shutter control can be added to the cam, (if it doesn’t do it already…)

This may be quite niche use case only for the latest virtual production volumes of course. But a very exciting possibility for the camera. Lots of buzz about it at BSC last week!

 

[rand thompson]

Beach Party // Tulum, Mexico​

By

Daniel Gutierrez

Shot on: RED Raptor-X
Lens: VESPID Cine Prime 75mm/50mm

 

[rand thompson]

RED TECH | VRX PHANTOM TRACK​

By
RED Digital Cinema