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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED Komodo-X

andrewhake said:
Most of the cost of this system is the E-ND itself. Which is effectively an LCD panel in a cartridge. That is why it is much more expensive. Cartridge system means there is no chance for some mechanism to break and fuck your camera like internal built-in NDs. Internal ND mechanisms are super prone to failure especially with cameras that are in harsh conditions. This is a much much better solution. If the E-ND fails the clear passive cartridge system can always be swapped in immediately without having to remove the mount. I would imagine companies may also sell fixed NDs for this mount for manual swapping instead of electronically controlled.
Front of lens NDs are also really trivial to use and work with whether it be a matte box or screw on filters. And are almost always going to result in the highest quality image possible and the most ND options.

And we also have the great VND options from Breakthrough.

We are spoiled with options.
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I use a internal VND adapter unfortunately. It's a fix which has issues with circular polarizers and IR issues. Breakthrough filters are also overpriced, would highly recommend Kolari's products over breakthroughs. Though in general wish I didn't have to use these products, because of how efficient camera internal NDs are.

I understand internal NDs break, just like sensor breaks, media cards break, motherboards break. Granted I've never had that issue on any camera using an internal ND. knock on wood. so I'm not sure I would say "super prone". I have had more instances of corrupted cards than broken internal nd. Front screw on or mattebox filters give you reflections that can show up in the footage you shoot. This was the way to do it on film because, well I hope we all know why. You can get a tilt able mattebox, but it's much bigger, heavier, expensive, and archaic.

Sorry, the RED E-VND solution and the price it sells for just isn't it. Of course, this is only my opinion. Which doesn't mean anything to anyone else's work flow.

It's definitely a half fix for some, but the cartridge system seems, I hate to say it, meh . Hopefully it's internally integrated in the next Raptor model. If Kinefinity can do it, I have high hopes RED can do it.
 
Nick Vera said:
I use a internal VND adapter unfortunately. It's a fix which has issues with circular polarizers and IR issues. Breakthrough filters are also overpriced, would highly recommend Kolari's products over breakthroughs. Though in general wish I didn't have to use these products, because of how efficient camera internal NDs are.

I understand internal NDs break, just like sensor breaks, media cards break, motherboards break. Granted I've never had that issue on any camera using an internal ND. knock on wood. so I'm not sure I would say "super prone". I have had more instances of corrupted cards than broken internal nd. Front screw on or mattebox filters give you reflections that can show up in the footage you shoot. This was the way to do it on film because, well I hope we all know why. You can get a tilt able mattebox, but it's much bigger, heavier, expensive, and archaic.

Sorry, the RED E-VND solution and the price it sells for just isn't it. Of course, this is only my opinion. Which doesn't mean anything to anyone else's work flow.

It's definitely a half fix for some, but the cartridge system seems, I hate to say it, meh . Hopefully it's internally integrated in the next Raptor model. If Kinefinity can do it, I have high hopes RED can do it.
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Nick,

Just think of the RED-EVND as a much smaller more compact much less expensive Panavision LCND which is similar in it's ability to change the ND Filtrations remotely.


Panavision LCND
LCND (panavision.com)






 
rand thompson said:
Nick,

Just think of the RED-EVND as a much smaller more compact much less expensive Panavision LCND which is similar in it's ability to change the ND Filtrations remotely.


Panavision LCND
LCND (panavision.com)






Click to expand...

I think the idea is for convenience to go from clear to ND with swapping parts, or keeping track of parts. Less to do with the peak quality. RED might be a cinema camera, but a big part of their market has been the gig and freelance crowd that does all kinds of none cinema work. It is odd that RED has never recognized this customer with the development of a compact internal ND raw camera. It has less to do with RED or cinema in general, and more to do with a large portion of the mid to higher end camera professionals’ ideal tools for their work.
 
James Sielaff said:
I think the idea is for convenience to go from clear to ND with swapping parts, or keeping track of parts. Less to do with the peak quality. RED might be a cinema camera, but a big part of their market has been the gig and freelance crowd that does all kinds of none cinema work. It is odd that RED has never recognized this customer with the development of a compact internal ND raw camera. It has less to do with RED or cinema in general, and more to do with a large portion of the mid to higher end camera professionals’ ideal tools for their work.
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I think the issue you're pointing out regarding the range of RED customers is a very valid point.

RED seems to try straddling the edge of these market segments (leaning more towards the high end) and they occasionally get mixed results.

To me I think Komodo X was a great example of them nailing the needs of the midrange sub $10k market "gig and freelance" crowd.
RED made a lot of good decisions with KX balancing feature set while maintaining much of the physical attributes that made Komodo OG popular.

I think the tech in the EVND is great and likely maintains image quality better than many of the other solutions on the market.
For the high end projects that likely have a camera crew EVND likely meets the needs of that customer base at a price that's fine for them.

For the small crew, run and gun filmmaker who has to stretch a budget the EVND is thankfully open to them but is clearly not priced for that market nor does it have
the desired convenience of an all in one solution that doesn't require swapping parts.

The timing of the release perhaps made it seem like RED was targeting EVND for the low/midrange budget Komodo OG/X crowd when ,I think, it was always primarily a higher end V-Raptor accessory that happened to work with the lower end cameras.

Glad it's open to all DSMC 3 cameras but I can understand and feel some of the frustrations others have.

The lack of internal ND in Komodo X is not nearly a deal breaker to me but I do think it's a feature RED might figure out for future lower end cameras.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA
 
James Sielaff said:
I think the idea is for convenience to go from clear to ND with swapping parts, or keeping track of parts. Less to do with the peak quality. RED might be a cinema camera, but a big part of their market has been the gig and freelance crowd that does all kinds of none cinema work. It is odd that RED has never recognized this customer with the development of a compact internal ND raw camera. It has less to do with RED or cinema in general, and more to do with a large portion of the mid to higher end camera professionals’ ideal tools for their work.
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Yes,

I guess it would be much more convenient to not have to worry about changing between the Clear and the ND Cartridge, you wouldn't have to worry about loosing one or both of them if you did have one internal option. i look at it this way, the only solutions in the RED Camera line-up with internal ND systems are the RED V-Raptor VV and S35 XLs which are $39.995 and $34,995 respectively.

With the DSMC3 RED TOUCH 7.0" Monitor, they are $42,745 and $37,745 respectively. Plus I don't think the "Black" version of the KOMODO-X will be $9,999 but Maybe $7,999 or $8,999.

So for $8,999 for the Camera Body with almost Double the max Framerate of the original Komodo + $3.500 for the E-VND + $2,750 for the DSMC3 RED TOUCH 7.0" Monitor, you get all that for about $15,249. That's $2,750 less than the V-Raptor S-35 at $17,999 for the body only.


I understand that for a Mid-Level owner operator that that is still a lot of money. However, there are other cameras out there that offer an Internal ND solution, some of the higher-end kinefinity cameras for instance. So there are other options if you wanted a cheaper solution with maybe a not so similar quality image and not as well known/ respected reputation in the film industry.
 
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Got my Komodo-X today! Unfortunately, it's a $10k paperweight until tomorrow when the CFexpress card comes in
 
James Sielaff said:
I think the idea is for convenience to go from clear to ND with swapping parts, or keeping track of parts. Less to do with the peak quality. RED might be a cinema camera, but a big part of their market has been the gig and freelance crowd that does all kinds of none cinema work. It is odd that RED has never recognized this customer with the development of a compact internal ND raw camera. It has less to do with RED or cinema in general, and more to do with a large portion of the mid to higher end camera professionals’ ideal tools for their work.
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Agreed.

I know about the lcd evnd tech, it's also in mavo edge camera and the fx6. It was definitely done before PV's tech. Ironically, I never saw the PV VND in real world productions.
 
If swapping between a clear and ND cartridge is a major concern I’m not sure I can take much being said seriously.

You do realize that cameras that have this mechanism internally are also swapping cartridges right? They are just using an automated mechanism. None of them can go from clear to ND without making the swap. It seems extremely unlikely that there will ever be an RF mount camera that has built in ND mechanism without being adapted to a different mount. Those Kolari clip in filters seem like a good way to fuck up your sensor.

One actual useful thing with the E-ND would be to allow auto adjustment. If Auto is enabled it could just try to maintain current exposure level as aperture is adjusted.
 
The only think I find annoying about the E-ND at a glance is I wouldn’t be able to use the different little Komodo wings from GDU and Red I almost always have on the camera. So Jarred and Matt can I please have E-ND rib compatible wings? Thank you
 
andrewhake said:
If swapping between a clear and ND cartridge is a major concern I’m not sure I can take much being said seriously.

You do realize that cameras that have this mechanism internally are also swapping cartridges right? They are just using an automated mechanism. None of them can go from clear to ND without making the swap. It seems extremely unlikely that there will ever be an RF mount camera that has built in ND mechanism without being adapted to a different mount. Those Kolari clip in filters seem like a good way to fuck up your sensor.

One actual useful thing with the E-ND would be to allow auto adjustment. If Auto is enabled it could just try to maintain current exposure level as aperture is adjusted.
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Kolari has internal adapter filters for an ef-rf mount.

Yeah, I know cameras have to switch filters to go to clear. I would hope that if I'm posting resolution as well as over and under tests of the Raptor vs Venice 2 system on Reduser, people would know that I probably have a decent grasp on how to use these systems.

The Canon c70 has an RF mount and a more complex internal nd system since it has a clear and two different nd strengths, which also makes one more combination. The mavoedge has a mount shallower than the RF and E-mount, still has an internal full frame E VND system, that is also for a taller sensor than the V-Raptor's. Yet the Mavo Edge in height is about the same as a raptor. The FX6, full frame camera, e-mount, has an internal E-VND system

Gonna say it again, switching cartridges is annoying. I currently have to do it. It introduces dust to whatever glass you are using in the cartridge which can show up on your bokeh, as well as it makes the sensor more prone to dust. For $3,500, the E-VND is a hard pass. Would rather buy the strata system if I was buying a PL adapter. I understand it won't have data passthrough, as well as wireless control of the ND, but it's cheaper and does not require one to switch cartridges.

As I said before, I have hope the engineers at RED (who work their butts off btw) will include it in the next bodies.

Anyway I kind want to drop it. Repeating the issues with the system is sounding like a broken record. If it works for you, it works for you! Hope people create amazing things with the tools
 
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Andrew Dease said:
Is the Pogo pins on top of Komodo are the same as Komodo X why cant we use monitor on Komodo?

Also what is even the point of the pogos on Original Komodo? Record only? Usbc only?
Click to expand...

Jarred has spoken about it in the past, but the main issue is power delivery and likely some protocol stuff if I'm reading between the lines.
 
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