Start in the Commercial/Music Video business?

[Michael Frymus]

I know that a lot of people on this forum have a lot of experience working on big productions and commercials, that is why Id like some of your input.

I can tell that making commercials, whether fast food or cars, its a great business to work in.
I just recently finished college. I have been looking for jobs on mandy, craigslist, kijiji, you name it. And I've been looking for a very long time, every single day, several times actually, applying for whatever is good.

But most if not all of them are jobs that are low paid, where its ridiculous and will get me nowhere. I've done free ones, and have been working on some paid gigs, but its tough.

How can I get myself known in the commercial business? Or even for music videos? I love doing those too.
I live somewhat near Toronto. Do I just google up production companies that shoot commercials and music videos and ask if I can work with them on future shoots?
Any recommendations?

How did some of you get to work on some big name artists?

Id love to work as a Director of Photography or a Camera Operator. I also love being a Gaffer. Anything that has to do with cameras and lighting. But if it means gaining experience and earning extra money, I can be more flexible.

*If anyone in Southern Ontario, or even in USA (around Buffalo) is shooting a commercial or music video, or any type of production and would love some help, please message me! I'd love to help!*​

 

[David W. Jones]

I can tell that making commercials, whether fast food or cars, its a great business to work in.

Great business to work in?

Let me say that the climate has changed drastically in the world of shooting commercials. Many production companies have closed their doors due to the economy. TV commercial budgets have continued to shrink to ridiculously low levels. Spots that were being shot with a crew of 7 are now being shot by single or 2 man crews due to budget cuts. And the competition is cutthroat, with TV stations doing free commercial production with an air buy, and radio/television/film school grads like yourself, who will work for free just so they can put a reel together. I can't tell you how many times I have had to reinvent myself and change my business model in order to survive. Maybe somebody with a different perspective will chime in and offer you a great job in a fantastic market and start you along your way.

Good Luck!

Dave

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Pick a specialty and stick to it. No one works on "fast food to or cars" they work in one area, and master that area completely.

I looked at your website, and it is horrendous. Just show me some reel. Nobody cares about your CV - I mean nobody - just your reel.

 

[Andy White]

Make something yourself as a showreel piece.

Focus all your effort and resources - make this your calling card (on top of what you've done already). Don't let lack of budget get in your way... think of it as this is the material that'll get you work. You have to show a potential client something that excites and connects with them. You need to make an impact.

Forget about grip gear for now. Save some $$ to fall back on. Use what you have creatively... you can't light with a commercial or Hollywood budget. Instead, use this as your frame of reference and be creative. Don't look at what you haven't got - look at what you have got - and work with that.

As Rob says, focus on an area.

One problem with the world of today (I'm in my 40's and have been doing stuff since the late 80's), is the way knowledge is picked up... the internet is both a blessing and a curse. The availability of cameras and kit makes for a different mindset. When I started, an edit suite for 'tape' that had 3 machines cost more than 500K (and that was only SD and 3 machines and a vision mixer was needed to do simple dissolves/cross fades!)... when my generation stared, the only kit we had access to was at College/University or companies/facilities we worked at. Now you have laptop software that gives you the ability to be a one man studio)... but, because you've grown up in this 'new world' you don't see the opportunity that's there

I'm not having a go (far from it - trying to motivate and help focus your mind, as you want to move on and have drive and ambition) - but, personally rather than stressing about a a 5DMKIII vs the camera you have - or what lights you can get on a limited budget, pause a while and make some cool showreel stuff.

Make some material that nobody can argue with... and that engages and stays with the people you show it to.

From this, you'll then start to get work and/or contacts. Who knows what they will be... but, rather than look at what you could do with XX if you had it, focus on what amazing stuff you can do with the what you have.

Can't shoot wide?, shoot close and make it say something. Don't have enough light to illuminate a block at night?... go film noir or use neon to paint with the forms you're shooting... can't get decent actors? - don't worry - get people with good 'faces' and shoot mood materials... think big and small at the same time

You may not step into a DP position... in my day, you started as a clapper loader or camera assistant and then moved up the ranks... so, sell yourself, not a 'title'.

If I want a gaffer I'll hire a gaffer. If I want a DP I'll hire a DP.

So - think about how you are presenting yourself (as the 'web' is a portal to 'you')... and start making some work that lifts you above the others (who are all doing the same thing and are in exactly the same boat as you). If you don't know exactly what you want be aware that this will also make others confused (ie - 'Mike - yeah, he's a DP' 'Eh? he gaff'd for us last week' 'oh...') etc.

In the past, I've only hired, worked or collaborated with people that impressed me or that I could learn from.

Bit of a Friday afternoon rant there - but I really hope some of it was useful

 

[Nick Pasquariello]

I'm going to give you some advice that will be hard to swallow. But everyone I've met your age (and especially me, when I was your age) needs to hear this.

Seriously.

Ready?

You're not special. The past 20 years of your life every parent and teacher and administrator has been telling you and your peers that you're all special unique little butterflies. You're not. And especially if you were top dog in your school, you're not just a little guppy, and to feel that fall from grace HURTS.

The bigger secret, however, is that neither is anyone else. Your favorite director, DP, actor? Guarantee they started out doing shit work and shit jobs. Paying your dues isn't just a hazing period. It's literally how you learn a craft. It's how all those other guys got to where they are. Louis C.K. was in an interview recently, and was asked, basically, how only he can do the things he's done because of his specific audience and the reach of his website. And he shot back with "And how did I get there?" The reporter said Well, you put in the time. And he responded Exactly. I put in the time. No one gave me anything, I put in the time to build up those things. The only thing separating me from anyone else is time.

If the shitty jobs on Craigslist will pay the bills, start there. If there's a studio near you that you can start as a PA in, go there. I lucked into a PA job for Hasbro's internal studio, and it was sort of like grad school for me. I didn't know ANYTHING when I started (though, I thought I did at the time) and now, 3 years later, I'm out on my own, doing pretty well as a DIT, getting an occasional shooting job as well.

 

[Michael Frymus]

Its better to be shooting commercials and music videos than anything else I know.

What do you mean focus on one area?
I've looked at several peoples commercial work and it doesn't seem any focused to me. Shooting a variety of things.. This just seems as thought it would limit me more.

I know I probably wont start with a DOP position at first. I can start lower and move my way up.
But its just getting into the commercial market I dont understand how.

I looked at your website, and it is horrendous. Just show me some reel. Nobody cares about your CV - I mean nobody - just your reel.

How is it horrendous?! My website doesn't have my CV, but my reel.
So, I dont know what you went on...

 

[Matt W.]

If you're already making a living as a shooter you're doing better than most of us! I lose money on my DP freelance work relative to how much I spend on (mostly unnecessary) gear or at best break even. It's my day job that foots all those bills. So if you're supporting yourself, you're doing ok!

High end music videos and ads pay huge rates (five figures per day) in some instances, but the only people I know of who are doing that are sons and daughters of producers and directors and are LA and NYC locals. These are jobs people want. But yes there is still money in high end ads and high end videos (though much less in videos than before). TV is good work, too, and also hard to get.

For mid-range work I think corporate is as good as it gets. Not too difficult, good day rates, but yes you want a very specific reel to show to clients. You want to show them just what they've already seen from others, nothing narrative or stylized too much. This is the market I am trying to get into...

If you want to shoot for the stars shoot some amazing spec work and network all you can. I've seen people reach incredible success on this basis. Hire a really hot model for your spec work and find beautiful locations, btw. Not that expensive relative to other things clients want to see. Or high concept is cool, too. Then drive a BMW up to every agency in LA, dress great, and throw down an unbelievable reel and pitch at their front desk. Decent chance you'll get signed. Equally good chance you'll be fired in two weeks. 100% chance you'll be asked to shoot exactly what's on the reel you sent in. You have the advantage of being young. Top ad guys sell to their target market and know what's "cool."

If you're not independently wealthy just start as a second AC in a major city and learn and improve your reel as you network. This is exactly what I would do if I had the balls. Better yet this makes you money, whereas gear and self-promotion (spec work) costs money.

 

[Dan Frenkel]

Just follow your heart...and your gut instinct and life will guide you wherever you are. Just keep it real!

 

[shashbugu]

Just follow your heart...and your gut instinct and life will guide you wherever you are. Just keep it real!

Best inspirational quote.
a lot of the advice from above is really good, even the super harsh dudes.

From personal experience I can give you the advice below but it didn't work out for me in that order at all.

First of wherever you are today, away from LA NY is the best place to start your career. You'll have more opportunity to start off than moving to some big city.

2. reflect on everything you've learnt in film school, was your curriculum cutting edge? or was its more about the aesthetics? you will probably think from watching high end TV commercials and music videos that your college proffers suck balls. but alas its not true. Breakdown all the cinematography of the TV commercials and you realize its all the same techniques just different artistic choices and technology plus a shitload of visual fx. Now that you know this, go on to step three
3. Find like minded individuals in your community, preferably an aspiring director, a writer, a sound guy, an electrician, an aspiring graphics /motion graphics designer, a composer and a well organized and business minded individual who would like to be a producer.
4. Most folks like to buy, (but when i started I just befriended, interned, subbed. cleaned. PA etc at rental houses). Find a local rental house or individual with some gear, partner with them.
5. look for the local car dealership, mattress company, RV, PSA, pizzeria etc that advertises a lot on your local or regional TV. Have your whole team approach them. Set up an agreement with them to produce an ad for an upcoming promotion they will be having at no charge as long as they agree to air it if they like it.
6. get your writer friend to write the coolest copy your town has ever seen. Remember you want to be an international cinematographer, so your regional Ad should look, sound and feel like
Jake Scot's showreel.
7. Once you've produced the first Ad yourselves a few local companies will pay you to shoot theirs, its inevitable.
8. At this point you should have three dope commercials.
9. In-between all this, attend a few rock or hip hop gigs or country music ( country music and pop wannabes are usually family supported) with your team. Do one or two free music vids. Go out on your own shoot experimental pieces with beautiful women, ugly men and children ( try to rent a Red MX, they are cheap when you get the chance).
10. Now re-setup your website and buy a business cards which states that you are a cinematographer.
11. Heres the tricky part, you with have to send your reel to a thousand commercial producers or MV production houses and agents. Mandy.com is so 90's
12. Hopefully you would by this time have a friend, cousin, or uncle in NY or LA you can visit for a few weeks. Once you get to LA, find a colorist to recolor the selects for your reel really important). Have your DVD mastered by a real replicating house.
13. Don't ever say you are a gaffer, or AC, in NY or LA you'll never get a job doing that. Most cinematographers work with gaffers that know lighting better than they do. You be the cinematographer, you hire the gaffer. People are always looking for cinematographers, plus your reel doesn't have to be as extensive as a directors or editors. it just has to be visually pleasing.
14. Remember the movie cinematography business is more art than science, but the TV commercial and Music video cinematography is 75 percent technology driven. study classic and modern design, paintings and photography. Pay attention to the technologies out there.
15. This should be number 3, buy an old 35mm SLR camera and always shoot lighting situations that look cool to you.

A word of advice, mot people who work in the tv commercial industry just want to make movies, but it good, quick and fast money.

if you want to make movies. forget all the above. Go make movies

 

[Stephen Williams]

13. Don't ever say you are a gaffer, or AC, in NY or LA you'll never get a job doing that. Most cinematographers work with gaffers that know lighting better than they do. You be the cinematographer, you hire the gaffer. People are always looking for cinematographers, plus your reel doesn't have to be as extensive as a directors or editors. it just has to be visually pleasing.

The DOP needs to know how to light, it's what makes him unique, the Gaffer works under instructions from the DOP. If the Gaffer is lighting, then the Gaffer should take over as DOP.

 

[Simon Knight]

Best inspirational quote.
a lot of the advice from above is really good, even the super harsh dudes.

From personal experience I can give you the advice below but it didn't work out for me in that order at all.

First of wherever you are today, away from LA NY is the best place to start your career. You'll have more opportunity to start off than moving to some big city.

2. reflect on everything you've learnt in film school, was your curriculum cutting edge? or was its more about the aesthetics? you will probably think from watching high end TV commercials and music videos that your college proffers suck balls. but alas its not true. Breakdown all the cinematography of the TV commercials and you realize its all the same techniques just different artistic choices and technology plus a shitload of visual fx. Now that you know this, go on to step three
3. Find like minded individuals in your community, preferably an aspiring director, a writer, a sound guy, an electrician, an aspiring graphics /motion graphics designer, a composer and a well organized and business minded individual who would like to be a producer.
4. Most folks like to buy, (but when i started I just befriended, interned, subbed. cleaned. PA etc at rental houses). Find a local rental house or individual with some gear, partner with them.
5. look for the local car dealership, mattress company, RV, PSA, pizzeria etc that advertises a lot on your local or regional TV. Have your whole team approach them. Set up an agreement with them to produce an ad for an upcoming promotion they will be having at no charge as long as they agree to air it if they like it.
6. get your writer friend to write the coolest copy your town has ever seen. Remember you want to be an international cinematographer, so your regional Ad should look, sound and feel like
Jake Scot's showreel.
7. Once you've produced the first Ad yourselves a few local companies will pay you to shoot theirs, its inevitable.
8. At this point you should have three dope commercials.
9. In-between all this, attend a few rock or hip hop gigs or country music ( country music and pop wannabes are usually family supported) with your team. Do one or two free music vids. Go out on your own shoot experimental pieces with beautiful women, ugly men and children ( try to rent a Red MX, they are cheap when you get the chance).
10. Now re-setup your website and buy a business cards which states that you are a cinematographer.
11. Heres the tricky part, you with have to send your reel to a thousand commercial producers or MV production houses and agents. Mandy.com is so 90's
12. Hopefully you would by this time have a friend, cousin, or uncle in NY or LA you can visit for a few weeks. Once you get to LA, find a colorist to recolor the selects for your reel really important). Have your DVD mastered by a real replicating house.
13. Don't ever say you are a gaffer, or AC, in NY or LA you'll never get a job doing that. Most cinematographers work with gaffers that know lighting better than they do. You be the cinematographer, you hire the gaffer. People are always looking for cinematographers, plus your reel doesn't have to be as extensive as a directors or editors. it just has to be visually pleasing.
14. Remember the movie cinematography business is more art than science, but the TV commercial and Music video cinematography is 75 percent technology driven. study classic and modern design, paintings and photography. Pay attention to the technologies out there.
15. This should be number 3, buy an old 35mm SLR camera and always shoot lighting situations that look cool to you.

A word of advice, mot people who work in the tv commercial industry just want to make movies, but it good, quick and fast money.

if you want to make movies. forget all the above. Go make movies

Quite possibly the most useful set of instructions I've read since the Karma Sutra.... Cheers Shashbugu...!

 

[Nick Morrison]

I can't tell you how many times I have had to reinvent myself and change my business model in order to survive.

Yes this biz like quicksand. You have to move fast, and never stay one place, or odds are you're going to sink.

As budgets fall, vendors are falling too. Only those that can adapt to the ever changing market place are making it work.

 

[jake blackstone]

When three years ago BM re-released Resolve, but at $995 instead of $100K everyone cheered. Democratization of the process everyone said.
Second act. BM releases 2K camera for $2995 and announces 4K camera for $3995. Everyone cheers again.
Now people having tough time making minimum living wage and have to take up a second job, just to survive, like actors.
So, why is everyone now surprised, that film business is not so great any longer? Whatever happened to the democracy those new tools were destined to bring?
It appears, that cheap is not necessary always a good thing in the long run...

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I'm going to give you some advice that will be hard to swallow. But everyone I've met your age (and especially me, when I was your age) needs to hear this.

Seriously.

Ready?

You're not special. The past 20 years of your life every parent and teacher and administrator has been telling you and your peers that you're all special unique little butterflies. You're not. And especially if you were top dog in your school, you're not just a little guppy, and to feel that fall from grace HURTS.

The bigger secret, however, is that neither is anyone else. Your favorite director, DP, actor? Guarantee they started out doing shit work and shit jobs. Paying your dues isn't just a hazing period. It's literally how you learn a craft. It's how all those other guys got to where they are. Louis C.K. was in an interview recently, and was asked, basically, how only he can do the things he's done because of his specific audience and the reach of his website. And he shot back with "And how did I get there?" The reporter said Well, you put in the time. And he responded Exactly. I put in the time. No one gave me anything, I put in the time to build up those things. The only thing separating me from anyone else is time.

If the shitty jobs on Craigslist will pay the bills, start there. If there's a studio near you that you can start as a PA in, go there. I lucked into a PA job for Hasbro's internal studio, and it was sort of like grad school for me. I didn't know ANYTHING when I started (though, I thought I did at the time) and now, 3 years later, I'm out on my own, doing pretty well as a DIT, getting an occasional shooting job as well.

I disagree with this completely. Thinking you are not special will keep you shooting shoulder-cam corporates for the rest of your life. Nobody wants a DP or a director who is "nothing special". I don;t know anyone who is truly successful in this business who does not think they they are special, right or wrong, it doesn't matter.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Make something yourself as a showreel piece.

Focus all your effort and resources - make this your calling card (on top of what you've done already). Don't let lack of budget get in your way... think of it as this is the material that'll get you work. You have to show a potential client something that excites and connects with them. You need to make an impact.

Forget about grip gear for now. Save some $$ to fall back on. Use what you have creatively... you can't light with a commercial or Hollywood budget. Instead, use this as your frame of reference and be creative. Don't look at what you haven't got - look at what you have got - and work with that.

As Rob says, focus on an area.

One problem with the world of today (I'm in my 40's and have been doing stuff since the late 80's), is the way knowledge is picked up... the internet is both a blessing and a curse. The availability of cameras and kit makes for a different mindset. When I started, an edit suite for 'tape' that had 3 machines cost more than 500K (and that was only SD and 3 machines and a vision mixer was needed to do simple dissolves/cross fades!)... when my generation stared, the only kit we had access to was at College/University or companies/facilities we worked at. Now you have laptop software that gives you the ability to be a one man studio)... but, because you've grown up in this 'new world' you don't see the opportunity that's there

I'm not having a go (far from it - trying to motivate and help focus your mind, as you want to move on and have drive and ambition) - but, personally rather than stressing about a a 5DMKIII vs the camera you have - or what lights you can get on a limited budget, pause a while and make some cool showreel stuff.

Make some material that nobody can argue with... and that engages and stays with the people you show it to.

From this, you'll then start to get work and/or contacts. Who knows what they will be... but, rather than look at what you could do with XX if you had it, focus on what amazing stuff you can do with the what you have.

Can't shoot wide?, shoot close and make it say something. Don't have enough light to illuminate a block at night?... go film noir or use neon to paint with the forms you're shooting... can't get decent actors? - don't worry - get people with good 'faces' and shoot mood materials... think big and small at the same time

You may not step into a DP position... in my day, you started as a clapper loader or camera assistant and then moved up the ranks... so, sell yourself, not a 'title'.

If I want a gaffer I'll hire a gaffer. If I want a DP I'll hire a DP.

So - think about how you are presenting yourself (as the 'web' is a portal to 'you')... and start making some work that lifts you above the others (who are all doing the same thing and are in exactly the same boat as you). If you don't know exactly what you want be aware that this will also make others confused (ie - 'Mike - yeah, he's a DP' 'Eh? he gaff'd for us last week' 'oh...') etc.

In the past, I've only hired, worked or collaborated with people that impressed me or that I could learn from.

Bit of a Friday afternoon rant there - but I really hope some of it was useful

Great advice. Everything you say I have seen to be true, many times.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Its better to be shooting commercials and music videos than anything else I know.

What do you mean focus on one area?
I've looked at several peoples commercial work and it doesn't seem any focused to me. Shooting a variety of things.. This just seems as thought it would limit me more.

I know I probably wont start with a DOP position at first. I can start lower and move my way up.
But its just getting into the commercial market I dont understand how.


How is it horrendous?! My website doesn't have my CV, but my reel.
So, I dont know what you went on...

No - all directors and DPs have an area - sports, fashion, etc. Fashion doesn't mean just shoots for clothing brands, but maybe a bubble gum commercial that is focussed on making pretty girls look extra romantic and pretty. Learn the categories. Advertising is very conservative - you can't be a generalist. Music video is not, but music video generally doe not pay enough to cover the rent.

 

[Peter Stelzhammer]

I know people who started out with rental (actual gear -> Lighting, Grip, Cameras...) and after a few years "moved up" to actually DP stuff now. But either way it's an investment of time and money first... Doesn't matter if it's for gear or if it's for producing a demo/reference-reel for getting jobs.

First off; you should have some interest in this stuff... if you just think it's a nice job or people are getting paid good money for it for sure -> you can't count on that and it's not as if every job will turn out the same. It usually involves a lot of stress, work and often (in my experience) overtime (to some extend unpaid). Some of my relatives only see the "good" part; "oh - you're traveling a lot, don't you", "oh, you meet interesting people" and so on... That I sometimes hop on a plane and everything I see from these "other countries" is the airport, a car rental, a highway, a hotel room where I sleep, a hotel room where the Set is built up - and the other way around to get back... -> that's the other truth for a job like this. But I like what I do, I learn a lot, I never know what comes next (which is a challenge but lets you grow if it doesn't break you) and I don't mind I'm not getting paid as much as others do in other fields...

I also agree with many of the answers above, there's some good info and truth in it!

 

[Nick Morrison]

No - all directors and DPs have an area - sports, fashion, etc. Fashion doesn't mean just shoots for clothing brands, but maybe a bubble gum commercial that is focussed on making pretty girls look extra romantic and pretty. Learn the categories. Advertising is very conservative - you can't be a generalist. Music video is not, but music video generally doe not pay enough to cover the rent.

Exactly. You start to get known for what you do WELL, and you get booked to do THAT. Even though you chafe at the repetitiveness, it's a reality.

I'm experiencing that now in my own carrear where I am known for ONE thing, even though I'd like to try ANOTHER.

Invariably, you specialize and become very good at one thing. Or several specific things. And because of that...you become valuable and you get booked. To do THAT. The specificity becomes a blessing (you're booked! You can pay the rent!), and a curse (really? another one of these?!).

After you learn to navigate these waters, trying to change it up, and do different things, becomes your next biggest hurdle.

 

[shashbugu]

The DOP needs to know how to light, it's what makes him unique, the Gaffer works under instructions from the DOP. If the Gaffer is lighting, then the Gaffer should take over as DOP.

every DOP worth anything knows how to light. But some of the most gifted DOP's know exactly what they want artistically but need a talented gaffer to execute. Sound guys,Gaffers, grips, camera ops and AC's build their careers through the apprenticeship system, it takes a heck of a lot of experience and technological know how. DP's, Directors, editors have to be artistic visionaries not technocrats. I you've ever worked on a Hollywood TV series you'll quickly learn the value go gaffers. Most series switch between 2 to 10 different cinematographers and a gazillion directors, but the below the line light and sound crew keeps the series sonically and visually consistent. Nobody can tell the difference between a Tarantino or other hot shot directors CSI episodes, even when they switch between digital and film, it all looks and feels consistent.

 

[Wey Wang]

Some great advice in this thread!

One thing I would like to add that hasn't only briefly been mentioned is how long it takes to get there. I constantly tell the story of David Mullen, ASC, because he is such an inspiration to me. It took him 10 years before he joined Local 600. And then it was 3 years after that that he got invited to the ASC. How crazy is that?! And he does some amazing work.

But in the intervening 10 years, he slowly built his career. Often times supported by his wife.

So, I constantly remind myself that it's ok not to rush. It's ok that I'm not there yet. There's still time. How do I best develop myself so I'll be ready when the time comes? By shooting, networking, studying, and having fun!