"numerically honest 4k", Sony backhanded slap at Red

[Wayne Beck]

I spoke with a rep on Sony's floor on Monday the 11th. I had to press the rep quite a bit and he said they are trying to keep the price under $100K, they don't know if they can, but that was their goal. That was on the F65.

 

[Jannard]

We know of some studios, including the biggest, that are re-mastering old films (classics) with 4K scans and preparing for re-release in 4K. When 4K reaches the home, we expect this process to increase.

Jim

Thanks Jim, but part of my question is also -- how viable/realistic is it to go back to the original film and remaster for 4k delivery?

How much of that do you think we'll see in the 4k world?

I guess the difficulty/cost only further underscores the importance of shooting 4k digital (i.e. MX/Epic) right now.

Thanks for all the responses ...

Anthony

 

[AnthonyFlores]

We know of some studios, including the biggest, that are re-mastering old films (classics) with 4K scans and preparing for re-release in 4K. When 4K reaches the home, we expect this process to increase.

Jim

Hot damn! I had no idea. Given what I saw from the booth on the 4k projector, and how much better it looks, I'm couldn't be happier that this is taking place.

One thing though Jim -- you get a lot of credit for predicting or envisioning the future. Rightly so! But it's easier when you know everything that happens behind the scenes (teasing you a bit)

i'll have to make sure I see Pirates next month on a theater with genuine 4k projection ...

Thanks again,

Anthony

 

[Pawel Achtel]

... And when they release it, I'll be quite curious how they figure out how to ignore what they said.

Jim

Politicians do it all the time ....no doubt punters will be pissed off when they work out their investment has been obsoleted this quickly.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Hot damn! I had no idea. Given what I saw from the booth on the 4k projector, and how much better it looks, I'm couldn't be happier that this is taking place.

One thing though Jim -- you get a lot of credit for predicting or envisioning the future. Rightly so! But it's easier when you know everything that happens behind the scenes (teasing you a bit)

i'll have to make sure I see Pirates next month on a theater with genuine 4k projection ...

Thanks again,

Anthony

That would be a 2D screening, as far as I can understand...

Just trying to remember here

2k 2D @ 24 or 48 fps
2k 3D @ 24 fps
4k 2D @ 24

with the current server/projector specs...

But I may well be way off. Have been before...

But is there a 4k master made of Pirates?

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

Look, technology progresses and sometimes at a furious rate. You just have to shoot with what you have at the time and move on to the next project, I don't think Fincher looks back on Benjamin Button and says "Oh I wish I shot red or Dalsa" at the time he felt red wasn't ready but the MX chip came out in time for the social network and he shot on that.
Look at the BBC, Doctor Who was shot on Digibeta up until 2009, if you get hung up on this stuff always waiting for the next big tech to make your movie you'll never shoot anything.
I don't regret shooting my first few shorts in DV, it was the best I could cut on my powerbook G4 and frankly the best I could afford not to mention I was still learning and still am learning my craft as a director, I am gearing up to shoot another short film next month for 48 hours.
Sure I would love to shoot on MX or EPIC with some fancy lenses but the fact is all I can afford is a PMW EX1 so I'm just going to try and make the best film I can with what I have.

 

[Jannard]

That would be a 2D screening, as far as I can understand...

Pirates is likely to be screened 2K 3D. Down-rezzing is much better than up-rezzing. There will be a day when we will see 4K 3D. Some are planning on it even now.

Jim

 

[Gunleik Groven]

There will be a day when we will see 4K 3D. Some are planning on it even now.

Jim

Sounds like that... )

 

[Anderson Boyd]

We know of some studios, including the biggest, that are re-mastering old films (classics) with 4K scans and preparing for re-release in 4K. When 4K reaches the home, we expect this process to increase.

Jim

Taxi Driver just screened in 4K as a limited run in NY. It was stunning---just shows how bright the future is shaping up to be.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Taxi Driver just screened in 4K as a limited run in NY. It was stunning---just shows how bright the future is shaping up to be.

Ahhh, well I'm jealous. One of my favorites. Can't wait for 4k to become widespread in theaters, homes, the web, etc.

Anthony

 

[M Most]

Pirates is likely to be screened 2K 3D. Down-rezzing is much better than up-rezzing.

Well, that, and the fact that there is currently no stereoscopic 4K DCP format (I.e., there is no 4K/48fps in the current specification). The only way to do it today would be to use two projectors, something that might be possible in an IMAX environment, but not in "normal" theaters or through "normal" distribution. There is, of course, some momentum building for this, as both The Hobbit and the Avatar sequels are currently planned for that release format, and the TI 4K DLP projectors are now being rolled out, so some time next year it will likely be taken care of, but it certainly won't happen in time for Pirates.

 

[Stephen Gentle]

We know of some studios, including the biggest, that are re-mastering old films (classics) with 4K scans and preparing for re-release in 4K. When 4K reaches the home, we expect this process to increase.

Jim

Apparently they scanned Baraka 8K for the restoration that eventually came to Blu-Ray. I can't wait to one day see that on a 4K display (from RED 4K/RED Ray)!

 

[AnthonyFlores]

We know of some studios, including the biggest, that are re-mastering old films (classics) with 4K scans and preparing for re-release in 4K. When 4K reaches the home, we expect this process to increase.

Jim

Well, interestingly enough, I went to Arri's website and they are touting the fact that the British Film Institute invested in one of their 4k film scanners to restore and preserve some of Hitchcock's best films:

Rescuing the Hitchcock 9

It's so obvious ... Arri clearly understands the importance of 4k, especially as it pertains to matching film. And I'm sure that them coming out with 4k digital camera is inevitable ... but until then, I guess they won't be in the resolution or "pixel race." Go figure

Anthony

 

[Michele Gavazzeni]

We know of some studios, including the biggest, that are re-mastering old films (classics) with 4K scans and preparing for re-release in 4K. When 4K reaches the home, we expect this process to increase.
Jim

I can't wait to see a movie upscaled 4 time on a 4k television.
Consumers will live in the Full HD standard for many years.

 

[Michel Hafner]

Apparently they scanned Baraka 8K for the restoration that eventually came to Blu-Ray. I can't wait to one day see that on a 4K display (from RED 4K/RED Ray)!

They tossed everything but the 1080p master... And it was not a restoration. Just a remastering for HD. Baraka is not in need of restoration.

 

[lumiere]

Well that's the whole reason you started this company isn't it? Every other camera company sells you a camera they hope will need replacement in a few years so they can sell you the next model. Problem with that is there is no customer loyalty. At replacement time, the customer reevaluates all brands for his new investment. RED develops relationships with customers and sell you a camera infrastructure that you'll be able to keep upgrading and if in the case of EPIC, upgrading was not possible, RED will put in place a plan where your original investment is taken into account so you can move to the next model. It's the core philosophy difference between RED and all the others. The innovation behind RED isn't just in the technology, it's in the business model and the approach with development. We now see a few companies trying to emulate that model, but it doesn't work. It's artificial. A bunch of corporate suits charged with building a following online is just silly. It takes a leader to pull it off. A leader that puts it all out there. Raw isn't just the image sensor signal with RED, it's also the company's motto.

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

I honestly don't think Sony was trying to screw people out of their money with cameras like the F23 followed by the F35 and the fact that F900s are still in service along with Digibeta cameras I think is proof of that.

 

[Mark Collins]

I honestly don't think Sony was trying to screw people out of their money with cameras like the F23 followed by the F35 and the fact that F900s are still in service along with Digibeta cameras I think is proof of that.

People screwing other people out of money?!?!?!? In this business!?!?!?! CRAZINESS!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

All of their F65 marketing feels a bit offensive, but then again so does 75% of all marketing...

Though even the name is hinting at offensive, and I hate that. F65? This is S35 camera!!

F23: 2/3 sensor area
F35: S35 sensor area
F65: S35 sensor area?!?!?

Right?

I'd bet it was a reactionary mistake. A small forced error, if you would.
(small because marketing is irrelevant where the real image is the goal)
Though perhaps they consider it a "brilliant marketing strategy"...

Anyway. We should remind the sales-rep that this is a numerically accurate, numerically honest: Catch-up game. Funny how re-inventing the wheel is only a bad thing when it wasn't you that pulled it off. Good luck trying to convince a director to shoot 3D with two of those instead of two Epics. But the sales rep is just doing his job, so you can't get on him if you don't get on 75% of all marketing ever made.

And go Sony! For getting on the 4k boat finally. 2k isn't enough at the theater anymore.

I think Sony makes beautiful images! This camera will be a great leap for a company that was starting to really lag behind, and still are, at least for now.

Quick question. How is a 5.7k sensor going to give me 8k?!? Did I miss something? Did they? Is that with a future sensor? Is there a date set for release? Will the sensor be modular so it can be upgraded like Red allowed the Red One and will continue to allow with Epic? Or do you have to buy the "F66"?

I want to add that those 1TB magazines gave me the chills!!! Not good chills. Bad expensive freak-out chills. This is still early 2011 Sony! Not an independent-friendly sign... at all.
How come Sony can't come up with their own efficient compression?! Even if it only barely approached REDCODE... Sony is a big company! I guess it only wants to service big/wasteful customers? Why not do like Red and satisfy BOTH..? Art doesn't require a big budget, so it must be a business decision... which is cool with me. Red is just a lot cooler in my eyes, and pocket. But with rental rates that are going to be so high... why not ease the budgetary pain on the post side when there is clearly so much room to improve?! Am I missing something? How big are their no-compromise files (something visually comparable to REDCODE)?

Anyway. Man, oh man... Sony is going to feel like such a joke when Red's real "65" comes out. Epic 645 Mostro...

0.002

 

[Tom.Wong]

All of their F65 marketing feels a bit offensive, but then again so does 75% of all marketing...

Numerically accurate, numerically honest: Catch-up game. And funny how re-inventing the wheel is only a bad thing when it wasn't you that pulled it off. Good luck trying to convince a director to shoot 3D with two of those instead of two Epics.

But go Sony! For getting on the 4k boat finally. 2k isn't enough at the theater anymore. And I think Sony makes beautiful images! This camera will be a great leap for a company that was starting to really lag behind, and still are, at least for now.

Quick question. How is a 5.7k sensor going to give me 8k?? Did I miss something? Did they? Is that from a future sensor? When?

And I just want to add that those 1TB magazines gave me the chills!!! Not good chills, bad expensive freak-out chills. This is still early 2011 Sony! Not an independent-friendly sign, at all! How come Sony can't come up with their own efficient compression?! Even if it only barely approached REDCODE... Sony is a big company! I guess it only wants to service big customers? Why not do like Red and satisfy BOTH..? Art doesn't require a big budget, so it must be a business thing. Which is cool with me. Red is just a lot cooler The rentals alone are gonna be high... so why not ease the budgetary pain on the post side when there is clearly so much room to improve?! Am I missing something again? How big are their no-compromise files (something visually comparable to REDCODE)?

Man this is going to sound like such a joke when Red's real "65" comes out, the Epic 645 Mostro. lol

they have a lot of strategies, which may or make not makes sense to a lot of people, but it WILL have a following.

3d work they already said they'll have a tethered sensor mode like Alexa M.
it's an 8k sensor, doing a live debayer in camera to 4k. dunno where you got 5.7k from

the 1 tb mags are gonna be brutal yes, i hear a 1 tb stick is gonna be 6 grand. and at max 16 bit RAW recording it will only offering up something like 10-15 minutes of recording. But they do offer a digital version of the HDCAM SR recording, which is somewhere around 440 mpbs, and in HQ mode can burst to 800+ that IS their compressed HQ codec, they invented years ago with SR.

In the end it will be the images that speak for themselves. Sony is aiming at a market with different sentimentalities, and is this gonna be a great indie camera option? no, cause it's gonna be triple the price or more of an Epic X, but will high budget commercials, music videos, and Hollywood films be giving it a gander too? yes they will. Because at the end of the day, it's all subjective taste. you can do the numbers war all you want, but if the DP or director or producer just simply doesn't like the images the camera puts out they aren't gonna use it. Either way, at least there is more 4k options now, and the more the better is all I have to say.