Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet...

Status
Not open for further replies.
the original dream

the original dream

Jannard said:
Anyone that has another option... God love them.

Jim
Click to expand...

Jim I now see that I read your post wrong but am going to go with it and reply to what I THOUGHT you said. I thought you said "anyone have another OPINION.." Haha.. Meaning that you were open to other opinions about this decision. But I know how things work at your level... you make decisions and move forward.. this decision is surely set in stone by now. nonetheless...

First - I'm not a troll. I'm a real consumer who wants the dream camera. And you make dream cameras.. right?

So WHAT IS the dream camera...? Well it used to be 3k for $3k. That's was a dream a few years ago.

I just bought a 60D and played with it on vacation for the last week. (and WHEN the scarlet comes out I can easily sell it and put the $ towards a Scarlet) Anyway, IMHO it takes great PHOTOS but, as you know, lacking video. We all know why it's lacking. So why can't a camera take high res photos at a high frame rate? That's the concept right? It's a simple concept..

Why not drop some of the features and make good on that original dream? Get it out and as others have said.. "Scarlet 2".. I'm an editor, a brilliant one of course. But in my profession you can over edit something.. tweak it too much and it starts getting worse. Sometimes the best works of art have a few flaws in them. OR.. look at what apple does. They deliberately leave out key features on each iteration of their products so that you're always compelled to buy the next version. I'm not suggesting that you go that far but just that you not be overcome with perfection when we were all sold on that original dream.

We were all sold on the original dream!

I know you have to make business decisions and make a camera that will actually be profitable. You are obviously a good business man (possibly a great one) and there's most likely a business reason behind this.. like possibly the camera is really going to cost more to manufacture and you don't have a choice but to raise the price, so to make up for it you feel you have to add a feature. Because if that's not the case.. for me.. and I can tell from the 40 pages of "yes please delay the project some more and charge me some more"-posts that I must be in the minority.. but for me, I'd rather have less 'whiz bang' features and a camera that delivers on the basics of the dream camera: perfect picture quality, at least 3k resolution, high bit rate, high frame rate, etc.. and have it NOW.. and then have the option of upgrading to get that HDR mode and touch focusing and other cool features for a few more grand next year. Seriously.. if you did it that way you'd probably sell me 2 cameras... the one now and the upgraded body later.
 
Last edited:
I am not sold on any original dream. I am sold on getting the best tool possible :-)
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
I know exactly where the 3K for $3K saying came from. However, that ship sailed in September/October 2008 when RED was re-thinking Scarlet.
Click to expand...

I disagree. I think that's a fanboy argument. Until this announcement I still felt like Red was still TRYING to make good on it. The last pricing I had heard was still under 3k for the scarlet body only.. which in my view was still a valid interpretation of the 3k for $3k dream. Of course a full package would be more depending on the lenses. Therefore the fixed for 5k, while a little hard to swallow, was justifiable and doable. If it's now $6k I can probably live with that too - although the more it goes up the harder it is to justify for MY needs. It's the timing that I'm having the hardest time with. As I said in my previous post I would GLADLY trade the features for the price reduction if it meant getting it faster.

I think that 80% of the commenters on this board are fanboy-wannabes who will never buy a red camera at any price. I freaking had the money burning a whole in my pocket a year ago.. and it got away. This is why I complain about the timing. I can raise it again but it's harder now.

(by the way.. aren't we just talking about 3k for $4k now? or even 4k for $4k?)
 
soren k jensen said:
I am not sold on any original dream. I am sold on getting the best tool possible :-)
Click to expand...

Ok fair.. I can't speak for anyone other than myself.

Look.. I want the "reasonably" best possible tool. The best possible tool will be the EPIC for sure. But that's not anywhere near my price range. There has to be some balance. Sorry, but like Jim said.. what other options are there? (his words were "anyone that has another option.. god love them") Well.. TODAY you can buy HDV.. AVCHD.. um.. or something like what I bought. Today for me the 60D was the best possible tool.

My point is that there is some kind of theoretical grid you can make - a sliding scale of features, retail cost, development time.... whatever. Somewhere in there is a sweet spot. A convergence of three opposing forces.. "reasonable cost" "reasonable release date" and "reasonable feature set". I think for Red "reasonable feature set" is no where near what other companies would think is reasonable.. which is what sets them apart. Thats a good thing. I'm just saying that the other two forces are important too.. and that I'd give up a little on the higher end features as long as they don't give any on the basic picture quality part.. which they never would.

ok.. i'm done.

:beatdeadhorse5:
 
RED is great, but it's still a small company compared to Canon, Panasonic and the like. RED kicked some a…es, but those will be kicking back now – they didn't use their full potential, they were just lazy. So, your dream camera with a large sensor, reasonable DR, a correct OLPF and a price range around 3K will come from them, be sure. Most buyers in this range will be happy with a nice image straight out of the box, they wouldn't bother grading.

So, what does David do when Goliath wakes up and comes angrily after him? If he doesn't have a stone big enough to kill him? He goes into uncharted territory where the big fat guy can't follow!
 
Uli Plank said:
So, what does David do when Goliath wakes up and comes angrily after him? If he doesn't have a stone big enough to kill him? He goes into uncharted territory where the big fat guy can't follow!
Click to expand...

In the final analysis it may turn out that the original Scarlet idea was little more than a dummy slap upside the collective heads at Sony Canon and Panasonic, but I wouldn't suggest that Red is in retreat... Not by a long shot.

I like where Scarlet is going. Some may feel like an opportunity has been lost, and to them I would say "You may go kicking and screaming, but come for the ride. Strive for Scarlet. Jim is leading you to a better place. Go with him."
 
Some thoughts (based on impressions and limited knowledge) for those still wishing for the mass market, soccer mum budget, high quality camera that does everything right that they thought they would get:

I think you have to remember that RED is a company born out of passion and vision to simply create the best cameras possible. The company started at nothing and has been a maverick groundbreaking enterprise all along.
Given the resources and size of RED as a company, it's drives and leanings it was perhaps a bit fanciful to imagine that trying to produce a mass market, budget, high end supercam could fit in with where RED is at. Simply put, you need huge worldwide distribution and customer support chain, wide market penetration and consumer confidence, large manufacturing capability and to be far enough back from the bleeding edge in your released products that you have managed to iron out all the bugs and got everything polished and working right. To add this kind of level of operation to RED would doubtless take away huge resources, time and energy from it's ground braking innovations at the bleeding edge of digital cinema production. This is the niche they have carved for themselves, it is who they are. In time they may grow their infrastructure to such a point that they may be able to consider making a more mass market product but for now, as a working professional who uses their cameras on a daily basis I truly appreciate the innovations they have made in the field in which I work and wouldn't want to see that damaged in any way. I'm sure their innovations will eventually filter down into more mass market products within reach of aspiring filmmakers & hobbyists whether in products of their own or from others.

And don't forget, they are still making a high quality camera that does everything right for a very good price that is well within reach of the budget video professionals for whom the Sony EX1 and so on were targeted.
 
Michael Smith said:
I disagree. I think that's a fanboy argument. Until this announcement I still felt like Red was still TRYING to make good on it. The last pricing I had heard was still under 3k for the scarlet body only..
Click to expand...

I previously stated that the 3K for $3K was still alive with the $2700 brain, and even arguably for the $3750 (fixed brain only). And yet many of the complainers said I was incorrect -- that got labeled as a "fanboy argument" as well. Some of them posted links to NAB '08 clips where Ted stated 3K for $3K was ready to shoot out of the box for that price. Which was what was claimed back then. I have attempted to use that argument myself and was shot down. So... It's obvious that we can't please everyone around here, even on semantics. I'm done trying.

Scarlet isn't available to buy just yet. We don't know the final price with any amount of certainty. So We'll just see what happens when it's done. All things subject to change and all that... The price will be whatever RED wants it to be and they will sell tons of them with these specifications.

I think that 80% of the commenters on this board are fanboy-wannabes who will never buy a red camera at any price.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

(by the way.. aren't we just talking about 3k for $4k now? or even 4k for $4k?)
Click to expand...

Yep.

I wouldn't start speculating on 4K for $4K. The specs are still a 3K Bayer CMOS sensor.... The S35 Scarlet is 5K, but we don't know the cost to add HDRx™ to it yet.
 
Last edited:
Michael Smith said:
Ok fair.. I can't speak for anyone other than myself.

Look.. I want the "reasonably" best possible tool. The best possible tool will be the EPIC for sure. But that's not anywhere near my price range. There has to be some balance. Sorry, but like Jim said.. what other options are there? (his words were "anyone that has another option.. god love them") Well.. TODAY you can buy HDV.. AVCHD.. um.. or something like what I bought. Today for me the 60D was the best possible tool.

My point is that there is some kind of theoretical grid you can make - a sliding scale of features, retail cost, development time.... whatever. Somewhere in there is a sweet spot. A convergence of three opposing forces.. "reasonable cost" "reasonable release date" and "reasonable feature set". I think for Red "reasonable feature set" is no where near what other companies would think is reasonable.. which is what sets them apart. Thats a good thing. I'm just saying that the other two forces are important too.. and that I'd give up a little on the higher end features as long as they don't give any on the basic picture quality part.. which they never would.

ok.. i'm done.

:beatdeadhorse5:
Click to expand...

I think the point where many go wrong is when they think that having fewer features necessarily means a lower retail price.

When you make professional-quality equipment, your customers are likely to be knowledgable and few enough to be served with a small organization of experts. If you move into prosumer territory, the customer base is orders of magnitude larger. Marketing gets more expensive, the distribution and service networks will have to grow, and retailers mean another layer that must get their share of the retail price.

You need to sell a lot more units to make up for that, which is why many startup companies founder when they try to do it. With that high production, you also get new quality assurance and control problems. With companies big enough to be in both markets, there is always a noticeable difference in reliability and robustness between the two segments.

On the other hand, I think the full-featured Scarlet will get cheaper in the not very distant future, at least in terms of buying power. At the beginning of the year, a fixed Scarlet cost about 77 barrels of oil. Now, after the HDR-addition, it will cost around 71 barrels of oil.
 
If the Scarlet is to be now considered for professionals may I request two upgraded features?

1. Instead of the mini primes having a "mini-PL" mount, could they just use the same ole PL mount as the rest of cinema glass out there?

2. Will the Scarlet have adjustable back focus like the RED ONE? Is that already a part of it's specifications?

If it's to be considered no compromise for professionals, please make ALL the features like that.
 
Jason Rudd said:
If the Scarlet is to be now considered for professionals may I request two upgraded features?

1. Instead of the mini primes having a "mini-PL" mount, could they just use the same ole PL mount as the rest of cinema glass out there?

2. Will the Scarlet have adjustable back focus like the RED ONE? Is that already a part of it's specifications?

If it's to be considered no compromise for professionals, please make ALL the features like that.
Click to expand...

Depends on which Scarlet you're referring to. I believe the S35 Scarlet will have a red, PL, canon, and nikon mount and the 2/3" Scarlet will have a mini-red, b4, and c-mount--last time I checked.
 
You can put a regular PL mount on 2/3" Scarlet. Scarlet has adjustable back focus too.

As for the mini-primes, I think stander PL mount is probably out of the question -- have you seen how tiny they are??? A mini-PL to PL adapter may be possible -- it seems that mini-PL has a shorter FFD. Or just change the mount.... 4 bolts, not big deal.
 
Bjørn Vermo said:
On the other hand, I think the full-featured Scarlet will get cheaper in the not very distant future, at least in terms of buying power. At the beginning of the year, a fixed Scarlet cost about 77 barrels of oil. Now, after the HDR-addition, it will cost around 71 barrels of oil.
Click to expand...
Just skipped 40 pages, but another year without Scarlet is much more expensive than any feature in it.
Maybe it was unrealistic that the team could have developed Epic & Scarlet at the same time, but there is always upgradeability to next model.
Just get the first version out and then start adding more features to a new version!
If I would be looking at camera right now, I would bet on AG-AF100...
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
You can put a regular PL mount on 2/3" Scarlet. Scarlet has adjustable back focus too.

As for the mini-primes, I think stander PL mount is probably out of the question -- have you seen how tiny they are??? A mini-PL to PL adapter may be possible -- it seems that mini-PL has a shorter FFD. Or just change the mount.... 4 bolts, not big deal.
Click to expand...


I hope the mini-red mount is large enough to make low cost C-mount screw on flange adapters a possibility.
 
Another long thread ;)

Well Jim, just when I think the Australian dollar is going to give me some price relief on the Scarlet package, you go and follow it up with a price rise ;) . However, the dollar is 20-40% over priced, and when it flips down again, I might not be able to afford the scarlet package. Recessions are great for release of very affordable quality product.

The low end mass market is now stills oriented, and that is reflected by the ‘expensive‘, sub $1000 Panasonic GH2 that shipped without 60fps FUllHD (do they work for Red or something ;) ) . I understand video camera sales are declining, displaced with video on stills. On the prosumer market I imagine cameras like the GH2 with little holding rigs, will be displacing prosumer cameras up and down the range. I expect this trend to continue. So this leaves a limited market above it, and for specific products with video/film oriented form factor in the prosumer field. This is a very limited production market. However, an equally stills oriented scarlet priced a bit more than the competition (present top end Canon) might raise sales many (many) times, on reputation and quality. In 2008 a sub 8mpixel 2/3rds scarlet was OK in this respect, however in 2011 it is not so good. So, I am hoping that for the $1000 dollars, the low end scarlets will have increased resolution and even a larger sensor, even if 2/3rd lens have to use a lens mount adaptor (and many currently owned 2/3rd lens are made for SD resolution). Otherwise, can we have a lower cost s35 unit that uses the cheaper all in one 2/3rds fixed lens electronics, has auto/manual lens mount adaptors for 2/3rds and 4/3rds lens, and an optional basic 4/3rds full auto wide to zoom lens.? Of course, the HDR stuff easily allows you to put exactly 8mp 16:9 on a 2/3rds sensor, with increased performance over the old design, which is what I hope is happening.

I think we are likely to see 4K professional, DSLR and prosumer cameras from the competition in the near coming years.

I can appreciate that the fall in the US dollar might also be influencing the overseas costs of the scarlet.

I would also like to ask a major question, can't a form of HDR be done for virtually free using the existing pixel bit depth and codec format?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top