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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Is this what is hurting the market? No wonder producers are looking for $100 people

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Alex Alonzo

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http://www.natetieman.com/Cinematography/RED_One_Rental.html
The day rate includes labor??? WTF?

Really does it have to be flat out that harsh?
Is this why producers expect DITs to work for less than or next to minimum wage.
$100 for a 12 hr day SERIOUSLY??? OUCH.
Tell me this is a fucced up joke please
http://www.natetieman.com/Cinematography/Labor_Rates.html

Way to water down the camera value, economy and jobs.

NOW if this was a hook up or a deal for a friend or someone ones worked with before.
IM all for hookups to people you know or need a friend.
But to flat out advertise like this.
Thats harsh.

How much for a 5D say $10.00?
 
Wait... his AC rate is higher than his operator rate and his DIT rate.

Makes no sense.

His reels are awful... but he's working.

Hmmm... maybe his AC rate is higher because he can't hurt as much from the slate as he can behind the camera.

You get what you pay for I suppose.

Nate... if you read this: look up "fill light" and "eye light" please. That won't make you a master cinematographer... but you're killing me!

UPDATE: I later decided I was a bit nasty here. I still believe my points are worthwhile, but I apologize for being nasty.
 
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Cheap productions will always want cheap people. This industry does draw them out to be sure. Quality work will always be wanted by quality companies and people. Each day you get to choose which you want to be. If he wants to work at $100.00 per day that's his prerogative. But it also means he will never earn more than $36,500.00 a year, before taxes. So much for "aim high".
 
Mark Phelan said:
Each day you get to choose which you want to be. If he wants to work at $100.00 per day that's his prerogative. But it also means he will never earn more than $36,500.00 a year, before taxes.
Click to expand...

I don't know why people are surprised by this type of deflationary pricing, really. $100/day seems like riches to kids fresh out of college, who are used to making nothing in their internship programs. I have a friend who pays her editors $30/hour, and they are psyched to make $30/hour...it is riches compared to the store clerk or barista jobs that their film school friends are forced to take. Film degree is the new English major.

You can bet we haven't seen the bottom - SCARLET will mean more cameras in younger hands, and the younger the hands, the cheaper they will work. They don't have mortgages or kids or other adult expenses yet.
 
LOL. I heard the same words (different industry) before.

Don´t want to sound snappy but,

Prices and rates are subject to change.

I know I gonna get flak for that, but I say that RED, Scarlet and DSLRs are real game changers. Actually it begun with the DVX.

It started in 1985.
I remember pretty good when those preprint guys with their million dollar drum scanners and phototypesetters denied the coming change at the dawn of the Macintosh.

They called them freaks and punks, they said, that this home computers never gonna replace their expensive machines.
Then they bragged on those cheap Coreldraw copy shop designers, taking their business away by undercutting the industry.
Then came a usable version of Photoshop, color scanners, QuarkXpress andwhatnot.
Those who where clever started to use that change for new business, those who still denied and insisted on their old wages and prices went bankrupt.

When I saw Aldus PageMaker, back in 1985 the first time on a Mac, I told everyone that the industry will never be the same again, nobody wanted to hear that.

Now I have a kind of deja vue in the film industry.

Frank
 
Frank Glencairn said:
LOL. I heard the same words (different industry) before.

Don´t want to sound snappy but,

Prices and rates are subject to change.

I know I gonna get flak for that, but I say that RED, Scarlet and DSLRs are real game changers. Actually it begun with the DVX.

It started in 1985.
I remember pretty good when those preprint guys with their million dollar drum scanners and phototypesetters denied the coming change at the dawn of the Macintosh.

They called them freaks and punks, they said, that this home computers never gonna replace their expensive machines.
Then they bragged on those cheap Coreldraw copy shop designers, taking their business away by undercutting the industry.
Then came a usable version of Photoshop, color scanners, QuarkXpress andwhatnot.
Those who where clever started to use that change for new business, those who still denied and insisted on their old wages and prices went bankrupt.

When I saw Aldus PageMaker, back in 1985 the first time on a Mac, I told everyone that the industry will never be the same again, nobody wanted to hear that.

Now I have a kind of deja vue in the film industry.

Frank
Click to expand...

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. You're 100% correct. Not too many strippers working these days. (insert your own joke here)

There is another side to this though, that is, the new technology enables many to do more for less, but does not endow those without talent to suddenly develop it. Can't tell you how many times over the years I've had clients who said "I have that camera" meaning "I could shoot it the way you do, so why am I paying you?" Likewise, I own several pencils and can also use them with some ability, but that doesn't make me Michelangelo. In the end, it still comes down to ability and what one does with the tools at hand. There will be blood.
 
Most real productions will only take you seriously if your day rate is higher, simply because they know that you mean business. When someone with a high-end camera charges that little per day, my first reaction is "What's wrong with him?" not, "Wow, what a steal!" One of my first lessons in freelancing is to always charge a standard rate, because then people will think of you as a professional. Otherwise you look desperate.

But, this person is allowed to charge what they want. I think it's inappropriate for people here to be making fun of his reel and assuming he's a moron. There's this little thing around here called "competition." In a market as saturated as LA, not much else you can do for yourself but cut your rates.
 
It's all changing

It's all changing

The foundations of the business are changing. The technologies not only of production but of distribution are changing fast. Advertising is changing.

Many producers will tell you that the high end of the market and the low end of the market are holding, but the middle has gone away. That means that high end production will keep paying healthy rates (or comparatively healthy rates) and the low end will keep hiring kids to work on the production slave-ships for fast-food service wages, or asking experienced professionals to work for a lot less.

The New York Times today had a story about the UAW renegotiating hourly rates from $70 an hour to $57 an hour, and happy to keep the jobs. Non-union auto workers are making about $50 an hour. They have come to realize that this is just the new world they live in and they can get on board or stay at the station and watch the train leave.

The Red phenomenon is just another example of some of the fundamental changes going on in our business. Look how fast cine lenses went from high-priced, handmade specialty items, to accessible tools for ordinary production people.

Some of this is very good news. Some of it is not.
Rob
 
Alex Alonzo said:
http://www.natetieman.com/Cinematography/RED_One_Rental.html
The day rate includes labor??? WTF?

Really does it have to be flat out that harsh?

But to flat out advertise like this.
Thats harsh.

How much for a 5D say $10.00?
Click to expand...

Do the math - he's charging $345/day for him a RED and an 18-50. So if he works four days a week (doing something he wants to do) with 2 weeks vacation he gets $69,000 less say $9K for amortizing the RED, so makes $60K a year to work at his craft. Not bad for somebody starting out.

IIRC David Mullen implied in his thread that he was in that ballpark (maybe less) for a number of years at the beginning of his career.

People need to realize that a RED one (in today's dollars) is about the same price as the cheapest "industrial" (i.e. not broadcast) Betacam in the 90s.

There were a number of freelancers in Miami back then using "real" Betacams (i.e. BVW300) shooting for $300/day - so with inflation - about the same.

Unfortunately, if someone makes an affordable camera, people will do the math and reaiize they can amortize it cheaply and just make a decent living wage charging these kind of rates.

Rob Gardner said:
The New York Times today had a story about the UAW renegotiating hourly rates from $70 an hour to $57 an hour, and happy to keep the jobs. Non-union auto workers are making about $50 an hour.
Rob
Click to expand...

Is that total compensation or the base hourly rate? If base I need to look at that! - $57/hr is $114K a year without overtime - and I wouldn't have to worry about all the stuff I do every day as a a sole prop - could put in my time and then just relax.
 
Michael Hastings said:
IIRC David Mullen implied in his thread that he was in that ballpark (maybe less) for a number of years at the beginning of his career.

People need to realize that a RED one (in today's dollars) is about the same price as the cheapest "industrial" (i.e. not broadcast) Betacam in the 90s.

There were a number of freelancers in Miami back then using "real" Betacams (i.e. BVW300) shooting for $300/day - so with inflation - about the same.
Click to expand...

Inflation since the early 90s is quite a bit more than that, close to 50% I think.

You guys gotta watch his non-RED real though. It's hilarious. And did he make a fake Budweiser commercial? Because there is no way that was paid for or approved by Budweiser.
 
Michael Hastings said:
IIRC David Mullen implied in his thread that he was in that ballpark (maybe less) for a number of years at the beginning of his career.
.
Click to expand...

Reread what David wrote, about $20K for 10 years, 60K now after joining the union, that alone is not cheap.
 
Stephen Williams said:
Reread what David wrote, about $20K for 10 years, 60K now after joining the union, that alone is not cheap.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Stephen - couldn't remember exactly and didn't want to underestimate.

The main point is a lease and insurance on $25K of gear is about $800 a month so anything beyond can go be your "wages" and many people are fine with making a decent living doing something they like to do.

Another way to look at it is to see how quickly you could spend $25k on college or film school so if you just say "dad this is what I really want to do - can you buy me the camera instead of 2 years of school" and it's an investment in a hard asset -

that may even have better tax consequences. Form a partnership and take the 100% 1st year depreciation deduction (which you can do up to something like $118K.
 
Alexander Ibrahim said:
His reels are awful... but he's working.
(EDIT)
Nate... if you read this: look up "fill light" and "eye light" please. That won't make you a master cinematographer... but you're killing me!
Click to expand...

Why diss the guys work?? Is yours so great? At least we have a clear idea of who he is and his experience level.

You guys were all screaming for cheap cameras, now you're lining up to complain. Honestly, who cares what he's charging?? I say good luck to him.
 
It's astonishing how spoiled many are in our game, art, industry, call it what you will. And now that the country is experiencing what is for probably the lower 40% of the economy basically a depression, and when the top 20% of the economic heap owns 85% of the wealth of the country and the bottom 20% less than .3% -- there is less and less room for the balanced middle which will create more and more stress and a less and less fluid economy in general. And yes, too many "english" majors who will not write the Great American Novel.

Anyone who can survive doing what they care about no matter how talented or not, deserves some respect, I think. There are some born with great natural talent and some who slowly nurture a minimal skill with desire into something that is also recognized as talent. People emerge and develop at different rates and in different ways.

And we have to recognize now the competition is international and the American empire of privilege (which so many take for granted) is being challenged. I've worked with cameraman, DP's etc in other parts of the world with huge talents who make less than that country's middle class wage -- and are happy doing it. Observing this does wonders for one's perspective.
 
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