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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Is this what is hurting the market? No wonder producers are looking for $100 people

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XiaoSu Han said:
Vilmos Zsigmond and László Kovács DPed a heap of indie films for free in their early years.

Nobody would ever criticize them for that.
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yeah, but they didn't throw in basically free gear - that gives teh rich kid with money from who knows where unfair advantage - that's what I find uncool about this - if the guy was only giving away his time, it would be another matter.
 
Liam Hall said:
Oh boy...

There really is no need for this type of comment. No need at all.
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yes there is. production is not some hippie hug fest - if you don't like harsh, you are in the wrong business - besides he maybe needs to hear it - my advice to him is go back to school, or apprentice with a real DP.

How is feeding delusions helpful?

Some of his shots are nice (mostly the ones that do not need lighting - I think he could learn, but if all he hears is how wonderful he is he will never learn.
 
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Rob Ruffo said:
yes there is. production is not some hippie hug fest - if you don't like harsh, you are in the wrong business - besides he maybe needs to hear it - my advice to him is go back to school, or apprentice with a real DP.

How is feeding delusions helpful?

Some of his shots are nice (mostly the ones that do not need lighting - I think he could learn, but if all he hears is how wonderful he is he will never learn.
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Rob,

Can you point me to the posts that "feed his delusion"? I can point you to several that are rude, unprofessional or plain immature, including both of yours.

BTW I know all about the harsh world of production. However, given you have no link to your work I wonder if you know much about it yourself or if you are one of those people who dish out real world advice, despite having no real experience of your own - a growing trend here on RedUser...
 
Entertaining thread...

I think that people should charge what they feel they're worth within their market. There are lots of RED One cameras out there now, renting one is fairly cheap. If you want a good rental kit with service to back it up, you're going to pay more. If you rent a camera with operator/AC or DIT, then that should cost more as well. If you want a rookie AC or DIT with a basic camera kit on the cheap, it's easy to find one of those too.. And then when your drive cable takes a crap in the middle of a shoot or the lens mount is out of collimation, etc.. Well, is Mr. $400/day going to be able to fix that for you on the spot in a few minutes?

As for the reel bashing on here. I'm at a loss for words with some of the comments. I think it's fine to critique the work of others, especially when done constructively. I don't see much of that in this thread. The RED reel posted on this guy's site is hardly the worst I've seen, definitely not the best. There are some nice shots in there and there are some duds. But we have to look at it objectively. How long has the guy been working? Did he actually light or serve as DP on all those shots in that reel? I encounter several DITs with amazing reels these days, which makes almost no sense at all, IMO. "Yeah, this was shot with my camera and I managed the data and provided support for getting the right look on set". Er... OK, is the only thought that crosses my brain as I watch one scene after another of final graded and heavily composited footage that the DIT had only touched briefly as the original source material rolled off the camera. ...Just sayin'
 
Dustin Cross said:
DIT reel? Why would a DIT have a real? You are not creating anything. Unless it is a coloring reel or LUT creation reel.
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Don't ask me... I've encountered several DIT's over the past few months that have a reel. I'm not kidding. Essentially it's their visual way of showing what projects they were a part of. But to me, it's like a mechanic and maintenance man at a golf course showing professional photos of golf courses they have worked at in the past and saying "yeah, I repaired the mowers and golf carts that operated there".

Whatever...
 
Looking at this guys website, I dont see what the fuss is all about..

My camera body is for free.. for anyone who wants to rent it..
however.. your going to pay for my evf, lcd, drives, mattebox, follow focus, lenses, tripod, head.. so on... until it adds up to 1000/day

and this is what he is doing.. charging minimal for the basic config which is hardly shoot ready, and then charging for the AKS to make it work..

alot of rental houses do this..

why were ripping on him is kinda beyond me
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
Looking at this guys website, I dont see what the fuss is all about..

why were ripping on him is kinda beyond me
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Totally agree Zakaree.
Especially since he has never posted on REDUser.
Great way to welcome him to this community when he does begin posting.

All of us started somewhere....
 
Liam Hall said:
Rob,

Can you point me to the posts that "feed his delusion"? I can point you to several that are rude, unprofessional or plain immature, including both of yours.

BTW I know all about the harsh world of production. However, given you have no link to your work I wonder if you know much about it yourself or if you are one of those people who dish out real world advice, despite having no real experience of your own - a growing trend here on RedUser...
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I have shot 33 music videos, commercials, corporates. One of my commercials won a Golden Rooster, which is a big deal here in Quebec, although I did not like it as much as other stuff - just a personal aesthetics thing - so no shots from that particular spot are on my reel. That's not 100, or 500, but it's still something.

I am working on a non-fiction TV series.

I don't own the copyright on any of it, so sometimes there is stuff online, and sometimes not and it's not for me to say. You can see a very old reel of mine on ExposureRoom.com (search my name) You'll notice the reel there was 100% shot on film, mostly super-16 some 35.

Soon I'll be able to post more recent stuff as a recent client has been more oriented toward web posting of his music vids. But I cannot post anything on my own, that would be a contract violation.

I'd say you should go easy on the accusations Liam. :smile5:
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
Looking at this guys website, I dont see what the fuss is all about..

My camera body is for free.. for anyone who wants to rent it..
however.. your going to pay for my evf, lcd, drives, mattebox, follow focus, lenses, tripod, head.. so on... until it adds up to 1000/day

and this is what he is doing.. charging minimal for the basic config which is hardly shoot ready, and then charging for the AKS to make it work..

alot of rental houses do this..

why were ripping on him is kinda beyond me
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I see the strategy - I think it's fair to rip on people who undercut the market, making it harder to own cams, making it harder, as a ripple effect, for Red to keep developing them if fewer people buy them because the economics have been so sapped.
 
Cheaper cams mean lower rental rates which undercuts camera owners which kills the RED market? So RED lowering prices means less people can buy cameras? Interesting logic.

I would remind you though that prior to RED there wasn't an owner/rental market like there is today. And without the low, low prices there wouldn't be as many owner/rental operations to be undercut.

If you're worried about being undercut by renting out a $20k product then you didn't see the writing on the wall from the start. Cheap cameras means cheap rentals. If anything RED has been overvalued in the rental market due to the limits on supply.

How much does a Aaton 35-III run? $50k+? Probably was $100k+ new. How much does a RED body + batteries and LCD? $25k? I can rent an Aaton 35-III w/ mag for $550 a day. Camera costs half to a quarter as much. He's only charging $250 a day for the camera and getting professional on set experience. Sounds about right.

It looks like the market is catching up with the value of a RED rental now that demand and supply are steadying out.
 
Is this hurting the market?
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Waa. Welcome to the free market. He is free to run his business as he sees fit, and attempting to fix rates is illegal. No whining. If you can't hang, get out.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
I see the strategy - I think it's fair to rip on people who undercut the market, making it harder to own cams, making it harder, as a ripple effect, for Red to keep developing them if fewer people buy them because the economics have been so sapped.
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Rob,
Interesting observation, but I see a major flaw in the logic:

If you use that argument, is it not fair for any other camera manufacturer to rip on RED?
Why should we be permitted to complain when well known people or companies in the industry slam the product we are using but then feel justified when some on this forum do the same to others?

IMHO, if you feel that it is fair to rip others, you have no right to object when others do the same to us.

Besides the absolutely wonderful capabilities that are being brought to us as filmmakers, the introduction of RED is having a profound effect on the financial side of our industry. The big names (camera manufacturers) are feeling it of course, but the impact is being felt in every segment of the market.
When you introduce a game changer, there are consequences. You may not like all of them, but you need to learn to adapt to the new reality - or take another approach and become sidelined in the process.
That's a simple truth that keeps getting repeated throughout history - consider all of the paradigm shifts that have taken place in industry - and our culture - in the past "x" years. You can spend a day plus naming off all of the changes that have obsoleted entire lines of business and taking down familiar names. Jobs gone, investments lost, no doubt, some complaining on the way down that a new competing product changed the economics and led to their demise. Yet, we consider the end result to be progress.
We are experiencing something similar now.
Increasing capabilities at a cost unheard of a few years ago. I'll take that as a winner.

Is RED "sapping" their own economics? I would postulate not.
I think that Jim is more interested in the images that will come out of his cameras rather than how much a rental company will earn from them. He could have easily released Epic without HDRx, or magic motion - instead, including the improvements in the release is proving to be more important.
As far as those that make a living renting equipment versus using it, I fully understand that some are facing challenges - but then again, was the introduction of RED cameras intended to create an increased inventory of rental houses or was it to bring a better camera to filmmakers?

Based on what we have seen posted recently, I would say the latter.
 
Hey, this is just my opinion, but this thread feels dangerously close to being actionable. You guys need to turn off the criticism. One or two comments, while tasteless, is one thing. But protracted, one-sided criticism could be construed as an attempt to do career harm. Let's shoot this thread in the back of the head and bury it in a shallow unmarked grave, or we can exercise restraint and delete the most egregious posts?
 
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