Is this what is hurting the market? No wonder producers are looking for $100 people

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Just a couple examples:

A Cooke S4 15-40mm can be had USED for around 40K
Otto Nemenz rents it out for $400.00. - that's without any rebate yet.

Arricam ST/LT are like 200K each, are rented for 1500-1600 a day.

RED ONE package = 40K, but renting it for 400 USD is an insult?

I think its 400 for a full package.. the prices your quoting are for individual pieces..

You want an arricam lt.. awesome. 1500 for the body, 40 for the follow focus, 60 for the mb14, 75 for the 2575, 400 for your cooke 15-40, 125 for the HD monitor.. so on..

the rates were talkin are 400 for a COMPLETE package.

dont get me wrong though.. I would rather make 400 than let my camera sit on the shelf for a day, but it comes down to a few factors.
A. is the company that is only willing to pay 400 for a complete package really going to take care of it?
B. if im working on a set for free or super cheap.. will it benefit me in the long run?

ive done plenty of no budget or super low ball projects where i jump on as operator or DP.. and provide a camera package with the high hopes of the promised "many future paid gigs after this"
and of course that never works.. they just move on to the next guy whoring himself and camera out for no/low rates..

Again... Im all for doing the no/low rate jobs.. but KNOW your producers.
know what your getting yourself into, or else you might be stuck in that 400 bucks a day all in lifestyle for ever, which is fine if your working every day and your enjoying it. But personally I want upwards mobility in my projects and pay

 

[Florian Stadler]

I'm not sure if paying 100/12 hrs is technically legal under labor laws, especially considering kit fee and expendables are included. 8$ an hour is minimum wage and goes to 12 after 8 hours.

 

[Steve Das]

I seem to remember thats what DM got paid for 'Norfolk', extreamly good work.

.... but after "Northfork" (same director) in 2004, my 23rd feature (on which I only got paid $1000/week!), I got another Spirit Award nomination, got into the union finally, got my rates up finally, and was invited a year later to join the ASC.

Actually looks like he got double that..$200 a day for his 23rd feature!

Seem to remember reading where James Woods actually did the movie
for almost free and then brought on other actors with him to do the film.

Low budget film is something people do for the love of it..you really
can't survive on it. Indie film..corporate vid..national/local commercial..
weddings..documenatary...are totally different industries and the day
rates vary accordingly. The norm in one is unacceptable in another.
And why we get threads like this. People just try to do their best.

Northfork released 2003
Total Lifetime Grosses
Domestic: $1,420,578 88.8%
+ Foreign: $179,226 11.2%
= Worldwide: $1,599,804
http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=northfork.htm

 

[Michael Hastings]

Actually looks like he got double that..$200 a day for his 23rd feature!

[/URL]

and that's if they only worked five days a week!

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

By the way just a heads up. If I rent out my camera I'm going to be undercutting like a fiend. I don't have any need to turn a profit on it so anything I make back on it when I'm not using it myself is just gravy.

I suspect there will be a lot like mine out there. Then again I only plan on renting to people I personally know and trust to treat it like their own so... screwball producers need not apply.

 

[Chris Ratledge]

Aged 21 I started out with my Betacam SP and I accepted TV work for $200 a day with all my kit. Why??

Because I wanted to eat, party and pay my rent....

I've been lucky too but I never stopped working in the last 15 years. Rates can go up too.

Thank you for pointing out the 'luck' factor. This is in my opinion a much larger factor than most would admit.

I don't want to party, but I don't really have a choice, within reason, of turning down legitimate paid work, even if it is low pay. I'm not gonna take the insulting offer of $100 per week (yes per week) to DIT a feature I recently was offered. $1.40 per hour is so low I could just cut out some stupid expense I waste money on and not kill myself for someone else's BS.

But the $200/day range on a feature is hard to ignore when living/working in a small market and the days are scarce. Especially with a family depending on you.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

I'm not sure if paying 100/12 hrs is technically legal under labor laws, especially considering kit fee and expendables are included. 8$ an hour is minimum wage and goes to 12 after 8 hours.

You cannot work for less than minimum wage. It is illegal. A Producer in Los Angeles I know was dragged into court two years ago and every project he touched or was associated with, was audited going back three years. He was ordered by the court to pay restitution to bring those $100 per day rates up to minimum wage for everyone he employed during this period and was levied fines totaling more than $20,000. There is no appeal in situations like this because it is a flagrant violation of Federal Labor Law.

Someone he tried to hire for $100 a day demanded minimum wage and he refused to pay it, saying he had already negotiated the amount, take it or leave it. The crew member simply reported him to the LA county Board of Labor and they initiated criminal proceedings.

I love seeing the look on the faces of Producers when they ask if I will work for such low rates and I tell them about this guy. They always think I'm bullshitting them to get more money until I put him on the phone with them and they hear it from the horse's mouth. Their hearts sink. It looks like somebody is telling them their Mother just died.

I will happily help anyone get their project made by taking a low rate. But I will not put them in legal jeopardy by not telling them to what risks they are exposing themselves.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

You cannot work for less than minimum wage. It is illegal. A Producer in Los Angeles I know was dragged into court two years ago and every project he touched or was associated with, was audited going back three years. He was ordered by the court to pay restitution to bring those $100 per day rates up to minimum wage for everyone he employed during this period and was levied fines totaling more than $20,000. There is no appeal in situations like this because it is a flagrant violation of Federal Labor Law.

Someone he tried to hire for $100 a day demanded minimum wage and he refused to pay it, saying he had already negotiated the amount, take it or leave it. The crew member simply reported him to the LA county Board of Labor and they initiated criminal proceedings.

I love seeing the look on the faces of Producers when they ask if I will work for such low rates and I tell them about this guy. They always think I'm bullshitting them to get more money until I put him on the phone with them and they hear it from the horse's mouth. Their hearts sink. It looks like somebody is telling them their Mother just died.

I will happily help anyone get their project made by taking a low rate. But I will not put them in legal jeopardy by not telling them to what risks they are exposing themselves.

AWESOME

Tell me more please, because I plan on sharing that story!

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I think it's inappropriate for people here to be making fun of his reel and assuming he's a moron.

I feel like this is directed at my comments.

Sorry but I think his work is bad.

I don't think he is necessarily a moron- even a genius can suck at something they have no training/experience in.

Note that I am also not calling him a genius. In fact I made no remark on his intelligence.

When I put images up I expect criticism- especially if I expose it to people, my peers I think, like I find here.

I've done some crap work. Not all my work is crap. Some of it is even good.

In fact I've intentionally shot things without eyelights and fill like I suggested. I prefer to think it was motivated as opposed to unthought of. If I share it here and you think its crap, you had better say so!

I think this guy has set his rates so low because he needs lots of work to gain experience.

So, maybe I could have said it better, but I do think his very low rate is justified by his work.

I assume he'll get better.

I also commented that his 2AC rate was higher... if he's organized, detail oriented and willing to work I bet he's a much better 2AC than he is a DP. I was a bit nasty about it, but that is essentially what I said before.

Ultimately we all have to compete based on our skills not our gear.

 

[Liam Hall]

Sorry but I think his work is bad.

Oh boy...

There really is no need for this type of comment. No need at all.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Oh boy...

There really is no need for this type of comment. No need at all.

Really? Like, really?

What the heck is wrong with an honest opinion of someone's work? Its a reel. Its there specifically to be judged.

Do you truly think no one should ever be critical of publicly posted work? Or worse, perhaps you think we should only say good things about the work of others?

Sorry, I disagree.

I'd rather hear bad things about my work from fellow DPs than from producers who are passing on hiring me. I have thick skin, and my advice to everyone in this business it to develop one of their own.

From experience I can definitely say that hearing bad things from peers hurts a lot less than a producer saying "Sorry I can't use you." The criticism of my peers might, might I say, hurt my feelings. I'll definitely learn from it though.

A producer passing me up costs me rent or dinner or both figuratively, but sometimes literally. Worse, I rarely get to learn from it.

So, if you feel "there is no need" then someone had better explain... because I'm apparently not the only one posting to this topic that doesn't see why "there is no need."

 

[Liam Hall]

Really? Like, really?

Yes, really.

The guy didn't post his work here to be criticized. He didn't post his work here at all.

I'm all for honest criticism and I'm more than happy to give and receive it, but your attack on this young guy comes across as nothing more than jealousy due to him having a good RED set-up.

Looking at his website it is clear where he's at and where he's trying to get to.

You should have bit your lip regarding his talent and said nothing. I looked at your website and bit mine...

 

[Clint Lealos]

Alexander,
Let me first acknowledge your points. Yes, hearing criticism can be painful and helpful at the same time. Also, that pain is less painful than having no money and/or work. Where we disagree is that I think constructive criticism is one thing, but "I think his work is bad" is another. I can tell by your last couple posts that you realized how you initially came off and apologized, so I give you credit for that. I also don't disagree with some of your points throughout the thread, but telling him he is bad (again) doesn't do anything positive for anyone. If you really care about giving him feedback, you could send him a PM with some advice on how to improve his skills. I think what happened here was you had a strong emotional reaction to seeing someone with such low rates competing in your field. Your anger is justified, but your negative comments are not. In the end the best policy is if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything, or at least say it discreetly. Better yet, wait an hour and see if you still need to say it. We are all on the same team here. Please don't mistake my words as any kind of judgment on what kind of person you are. Just some humble advice from a guy (me) that sticks his foot in his mouth more than most Peace.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

You cannot work for less than minimum wage. It is illegal. A Producer in Los Angeles I know was dragged into court two years ago and every project he touched or was associated with, was audited going back three years. He was ordered by the court to pay restitution to bring those $100 per day rates up to minimum wage for everyone he employed during this period and was levied fines totaling more than $20,000. There is no appeal in situations like this because it is a flagrant violation of Federal Labor Law.

Someone he tried to hire for $100 a day demanded minimum wage and he refused to pay it, saying he had already negotiated the amount, take it or leave it. The crew member simply reported him to the LA county Board of Labor and they initiated criminal proceedings.

Some things about this story don't seem right to me.

A) Isn't $100/day already in excess of minimum wage, which in CA is $8/hour - for an 8 hour day, isn't $100/day already in excess of the minimum wage? In fact, he could be requesting 12-hour days and still not be violating minimum wage standards...

B) Unless you are on a payroll, minimum wage laws do not apply to independent sub-contractors, which is how the OP is selling his services. I don't know how your Producer structured his production, but typically independent sub-contractors work based on the completion of the job, not the hours worked. A 1099 subcontractor is not protected by minimum wage laws.

Just askin' - a lot of us work as 1099 subs, not as employees on a payroll - and I would not want anyone to be misled by this anecdote regarding their compensation rights.

 

[Steve Das]

Some things about this story don't seem right to me....

Agree..there is nothing of this on the internet. And the LA Times covers
quite abit of entertainment news like this and think they would have
been all over this. Then again maybe it is considered a small enforcement matter
and it flew under the radar. Still seems like it would merit mention.

Believe if minimum is $8 an hour and if you count time and a half after 8hrs.

So you get $112 for a 12 hour day which is awful close to $100 quoted rate.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

You should have bit your lip regarding his talent and said nothing. I looked at your website and bit mine...

Fascinating.

Could you point at the links to my work on my site, because I missed them.

Or perhaps trying to make a point without taking the time to actually look?

(I suppose you could be commenting on my template website, but that seems out of the way.)

Jealous over a RED Rig? Way off the mark. If he had some Summilux PLs, then maybe.

Clint was closer to hitting home. I am a bit cranky about the low rates. Not cranky enough to attack some guy on a board about unrelated matters- at least I hope not.

My advice to the fellow was in the first post, when I was being snarky: some fill and eyelight.

All in all I still don't agree. If you put something out there, then its fair game.

Since it seems to be the prevailing wisdom though, I'll play along, if only to be a good citizen.

In the spirit of moving on, how do you guys set your rates? Do you have a system... or is it just something that evolved over time?

I was kind of arbitrary about my "card rate" and I often negotiate it down.

 

[Liam Hall]

Fascinating.

Could you point at the links to my work on my site, because I missed them.

Here you go:

http://www.alexanderibrahim.net/film/filmmaking.html

Two seconds on google will get you here:

http://scifimafia.com/2010/03/buck-rogers-in-the-25th-century-webseries-launching-this-fall/

And if you follow the link in your signature you'll find your IMDB entry and a critique of one of your "films" that reads:

It still looks like it was taped in somebody's mother's basement, the lighting needs major improvement, perhaps buying about 20 more lights would do the trick. The filming angles are very rough, and the sound is just plain BAD! The sound effects and music seem to be totally out of place with the action, and it just gets worse! There are some good video productions out there, but this is not one of them!

I had a good look at your site, I couldn't tell if you were a hockey player or a NASA crash dummy. I certainly didn't see any evidence to suggest you are a professional director/DoP/editor/colorist/compositor as claimed in your signature here on RedUser, but this isn't a pissing competition, so as I said earlier, I bit my lip. Though, you might want to rethink how you present yourself to the industry - just some friendly advice

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Alexander,

I fully agree that if someone posts a link to their own work and asks for feedback from our community, we should respond. It should be treated professionally. No matter what level they are at, beginner or advanced - teaching each other - sharing knowledge is key. If you don't think so, ask Dave Mullen to cease his thread. Or, re-read his thread to see how sharing opinions need not be an attack.

However, one point that you seem to be missing:

In this case, the person you are criticizing (Nate) did not even originate the post. Someone else started the thread pointing out his rate structure.
Nate may not even realize the comments that are being made about him right now.

Is that fair?
Is that proper for this user forum?

I would like to voice a concern that this type of attack is damaging to the reputation of this site - and to all of us as well.
Jim has made it clear that RED is targeted to the professional market. Perhaps it is time to bring that mindset into this thread/discussion.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Some things about this story don't seem right to me.

A) Isn't $100/day already in excess of minimum wage, which in CA is $8/hour - for an 8 hour day, isn't $100/day already in excess of the minimum wage? In fact, he could be requesting 12-hour days and still not be violating minimum wage standards...

Steve calculated it right, 12 hours is $112 at minimum wage. 11 hours is $100 at minimum wage.

The thing is that that doesn't account for employer contribution to income tax, medicare and social security.

B) Unless you are on a payroll, minimum wage laws do not apply to independent sub-contractors, which is how the OP is selling his services. I don't know how your Producer structured his production, but typically independent sub-contractors work based on the completion of the job, not the hours worked. A 1099 subcontractor is not protected by minimum wage laws.

Just askin' - a lot of us work as 1099 subs, not as employees on a payroll - and I would not want anyone to be misled by this anecdote regarding their compensation rights.

There are specific legal requirements that cover wether or not an worker can be a contractor or if they must be an employee.

It is frequently possible for you and some other person to enter into a contractor/1099 agreement, and have that agreement be improper, which then causes the relationship to default to a standard employee/employer relationship. No matter what papers you might sign, the law says that the facts of your situation determine your status, and that the government is the arbiter of those facts.

One specific example, which is investigated seriously, of an improper contractor relationship is when contractor status is being used primarily to avoid minimum wage laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misclassification_of_employees_as_independent_contractors

So... its not an outlandish statement, in fact I'd call it plausible... but also much more complex than was stated earlier.

 

[Richard_JP]

Ouch, that's gotta hurt Alexander