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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Who is RED?

Proved His Point

Proved His Point

Jim,

What's interesting is that I think the recent drama on the boards
only proves you're on the right track with your statement -- nearly
all those who are most upset and rude about the delays/price
increases are those not really in your target market of professionals.

Obviously, EVERYONE is frustrated on some level (none more than
you guys at Red!) ... but as for those who get priced out of the
game by radically improved new features with modest price
increases, it's impossible for Red to cater to their needs.

Bottom line: Whether it's Epic, Scarlet or any other camera in the
future line ... people need to be making money with their camera gear,
or at the very least need to see it as a worthwhile sacrifice/investment
in their future, their career or their art. PERIOD.

I understand about budgets and how money can be scarce --
I've been there but if you, Jim, keep protecting Red's branding and
strong position amongst professionals -- it will only help to ensure
everyone can make more money from their Red gear going forward.

I will start a separate thread in the DMSC section about budgeting
and making money from Red gear so those who are concerned
about pricing can perhaps see how Red owners are profiting from
their cameras, and perhaps open their horizons about how they
might be able to finance their gear at whatever the final prices
are.

Thanks again Jim,

Anthony
 
AnthonyFlores said:
... but as for those who get priced out of the
game by radically improved new features with modest price
increases, it's impossible for Red to cater to their needs.
Click to expand...
If I were a guessing man... and I am... I would guess that most of the threats to buy another brand of camera were just that... idle threats. I presume there's no way to ever know but I bet (guess) that a large majority of them will be HDRx™™ enabled Scarlet owners as soon as the camera hits the shelves.

ADDITIONAL: I also would guess that Scarlet sales acheived a net gain with the announcement of the inclusion of HDRx boards and ASIC.
 
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So RED is a pro-tool? What else is new? ;)

If I'm OK with my skintones clipping to yellow whenever a light gets close to the actor I go for Canon. If I'm OK with steppy eye-lashes in close-ups, I go for a Canon. If I don't want all of that but I'm OK with edge and bokeh banding and skin tones not having detail, I go for a D7000. (Yes I used a D7000, was one of the first ones to shoot tests with it).

If I'm sick and tired of these compromises and am not on silly budget, I rent a RED. So far RED is the only workflow where the scale is close to even from a post production point of view. When working with RED footage I don't need to fix the image before I can go to work. So the first week of post actually IS post. Not pre-post fixing. With the HDRx being readily available soon (soon, right?) it'll even bring down cost on sky replacement needs (unless for creative reasons).

Now if you mention any of this with HD DSLR fanboys present you get lashed at for being an elitist f*ck. Apparently wanting great quality pictures is something to be ashamed of in these circles. [ergo: DSLR users = Pro | above that = Elitist]

Yes I can make pretty pictures without a RED using Canon or Nikon cams, I can also piss in the Black Sea till it's ochre. That's not the point. It's about how much effort and time needs to be put in to achieve a great result. To me and probably a bunch of people here just 'good' is not a desirable outcome, 'good' just means, not crap but also not great and not standing out of the crowd. With the HDRx, RED is raising the bar on what 'good' means and some people have a problem with that. Like one of my teachers used to say "Good is the little sister of rubbish" :)

Also the 'high' cost of a RED. Some people buy a HD DSLR and only shoot for 2 - 5 days a year. Looking at the rental rates for a RED One these days vs overall cost that money could have been better spend I'd think.


End of rant. :)
 
neil hartop said:
I think you hit the nail on the head, youre completly right,

An unfortunate elitist attitude has now arisen. Its very sad that couldn't do it. Everyone says it would never be done for that price range. If you want to paint it as 'were being professional' instead then so be it,

But its not about whos professional its about what you can afford so you can have your 'professional' status.

Backaward thinking indeed from the rich for the rich.

Scarlet is indeed dead.
Click to expand...

I hope you guys are kidding because this is too funny.

10-15k (Scarlet, accessories, etc) is a lot of money, yes, but it is not by any stretch of the imagination elite or rich. Remember a used Honda civic can be barely had for 10-15k. Last time I checked the freeway was chock-full of them.

Reality check, television and motion picture equipment is insane to begin with, if not prohibitively expensive. In an industry of insane prices, Red is probably the only beacon of hope.

If you think you can find solace with Sony, Canon, Panasonic, et al., think again. These guys have been in the business for decades, with capabilities and resources far exceeding Red, yet they haven't produce anything that remotely resembles the Red in price and performance.
 
RED is more than they claim to be...

RED is more than they claim to be...

It sounds like there's a lot of soul-searching happening right now over at RED, but I don't think it's over... or warranted.

Assertion 1: The Scarlet, with or without HDRx, is poised to be a high-end professional camera with a prosumer price tag. Compare a future Scarlet to even an aging EX1, and most of us would agree that there's really no comparison... except for price. And that's incredible.

Assertion 2: The Epic looks to be a marquee technological wonder that will push many of the boundaries of digital image acquisition. A cutting-edge camera with a prodigious price / performance ratio that will be deployed by thousands of professionals around the world.

In spite of the recent protests over the Scarlet's price increase, both of those assertions still hold true. I contend that Jim has overreacted to recent negativity on the forum and has spoken too hastily. If Scarlet is released in a form and market similar to the one we know today, a plethora of prosumers, indys, and entry-level professionals will still flock to it. Thus, Jim's statement that RED only caters "to the professional market" is either specious, short-sighted, or purely semantic.

If RED truly meant to only serve a pro market, then a 2/3" fixed Scarlet seems like a terrible branding blow. You could argue that the entire Scarlet line represents an affront to pro-only branding. Adding HDRx to Scarlet certainly muddied the waters too.

What's my takeaway? As long as Scarlet exists, RED caters to a broad market, intentionally or not. That's good for me and the "sub-pro" market, but it's not and never has been a "soccer mom" market; even the loosest interpretation of "3k for $3k" precludes serious thoughts along that line. Thus, I sympathize with Jim's reaction to some unfortunate backlash, but offer a third assertion to ameliorate his previous comments:

Assertion 3: You don't have to make a sub-professional product to serve a market that reaches beyond professionals.

I personally hope RED doesn't forsake the DVXuser crowd, because Scarlet still looks great to many of us and more.
 
All speculation, of course, but I wonder if RED has decided to stay away from the "soccer moms" because of the chronic service/aftermarket support headache it would create. Guarantee you would have every man and his wedding video dog on the forums bitching and moaning that they can't figure out the workflow. What a drain on time and resources that would be.

Just a thought.

I totally think this is a good move by RED. Sorts out the men from the boys, so to speak.
 
the interesting thing to me is that the majority of the people on these boards are probably not "professionals".
 
Eric Strunz said:
...


I personally hope RED doesn't forsake the DVXuser crowd, because Scarlet still looks great to many of us and more.
Click to expand...

I believe the point Jim was making is that the "DVXuser crowd" (as you call them) is more than welcome to come along on HIS ride; he's just not going to lower his sights to be along on theirs. Just my interpretation.
 
Kris Anderson said:
All speculation, of course, but I wonder if RED has decided to stay away from the "soccer moms" because of the chronic service/aftermarket support headache it would create. Guarantee you would have every man and his wedding video dog on the forums bitching and moaning that they can't figure out the workflow. What a drain on time and resources that would be.

Just a thought.

I totally think this is a good move by RED. Sorts out the men from the boys, so to speak.
Click to expand...

+1

Good point, I can see it already "Hello, Red? I bought this Red camera because it was all the rage, and I was wondering how I can disable this RAW mode thing. Can't I just shoot mpeg or something, I need to email my son's birthday party video to his grandmother pronto"
 
Kris Anderson said:
All speculation, of course, but I wonder if RED has decided to stay away from the "soccer moms" because of the chronic service/aftermarket support headache it would create. Guarantee you would have every man and his wedding video dog on the forums bitching and moaning that they can't figure out the workflow. What a drain on time and resources that would be.

Just a thought.

I totally think this is a good move by RED. Sorts out the men from the boys, so to speak.
Click to expand...

Actually I would imagine that the beginners could figure out the RED workflow easier than professionals. They don't have as much technological baggage they try to bring to the table that only slows them down. And unlike professionals they have been their own IT, DIT and lab their entire lives so they're used to dealing with footage themselves.
 
As long as "Only Professional" still means its possible to buy a Red at 18, Then personally I'm all for it.
 
I am glad there is less distinction between the Epic People and the Scarlet People. I was sensing that the Epic people were suggesting that they where the only one needing HDRx...
 
David Battistella said:
I only wonder why you would have so many cameras.

(much snipped)

Why start trying to cater to those "non pro soccer moms" you're referring to? Are those handcuffed products aimed at "lesser pros" who can not 'man up" and pay what it takes to use PRO EPIC gear?

I don't quite get it.

David
Click to expand...

I think Jim likes to sell to the people who have a dream and can barely afford his cameras ... as long as he doesn't have to totally compromise his vision to help them.

I've also noticed that in many instances, your first reaction to an expensive, innovative product is "Ulp! I can't possibly afford this!" Then you think for a while and realize you probably can. Jim is a canny marketer. I have noticed some people on these threads whose "ULP!" response was instinctual and automatic, and a few pages later you can see them say "Oh yeah, I'll still buy Scarlet, nothing like it ..."

Even if this was not the case, I've seen a lot of people here who are experienced pros, such as Steve Gibby and Mark Pederson, who are interested in low-end Scarlets as "crash cams" which you can put out in the tough conditions without worrying too much whether they will come back or not.

I think having the full line of cameras is very attractive to those folks.

D
 
If you want a serious tool to use for professional projects... think RED. No more "soccer mom" thinking. Pros only. Life is short and the clock is ticking. We have decided who we are.
Click to expand...

Perfect. Just perfect. Couldn't agree more !
 
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