wrapping my head around this

[Ian Planchon]

OK. I am not new to cameras, but this has me a bit confused. I just got my epic last week, and its been awesome. however, I am coming off of the F3 which was pretty straightforward to use. to achieve the best look you set your iso (I preferred to stay at 800) set your lights, make sure its exposed correctly and go.

Now to an extent, that is similar in RED land, but I am struggling with the ISO thing. I have shot mostly in daylight so far, and the other night I went to try some night time shots. The F3 was really good in low light. The EPIC was struggling however. So I figured, I will just bump up the iso. That resulted in some terrible looking images. But then I was reading the manual a bit and it seems ISO doesn't effect raw at all. so is it safe to say I can just watch the monitor in the RAW setting and I will have a better idea of whats actually being recorded?

What is confusing me is I see a lot of posts about "protecting your highlights" by keeping the ISO around 320-800 or so, but if the ISO has no bearing on the raw image, whats the point of adjusting iso? can't you just watch the histogram/goal posts/traffic lights in RAW to make sure you aren't clipping?

for the most part I feel like I have this camera figured out, but ISO is tripping me up!

thanks for the help in advance!

oh, and while the F3 was great in low light, its got nothing on this beast!!

 

[Gunleik Groven]

http://bit.ly/mCwcoN

 

[Ian Planchon]

thanks for the link! I will dig through that and see if I can straighten my head out!

 

[Justin O'Neill]

Everybody has their own methods but we just set the ISO to 800 and leave it alone no matter what. If you watch the histogram and goalposts that tells you exactly what you need to know as far as exposure. As soon as you move from ISO 800 you run the risk of accidentally over or under exposing.

 

[Ian Planchon]

Everybody has their own methods but we just set the ISO to 800 and leave it alone no matter what. If you watch the histogram and goalposts that tells you exactly what you need to know as far as exposure. As soon as you move from ISO 800 you run the risk of accidentally over or under exposing.

and then all your corrections are done in post?

 

[Domenic Barbero]

so basically the sensor raw is 320 ISO but if you shoot for 800 ISO i think it was stated you get an extra stop of latitude in the highlights. So for me I usually shoot daytime outside stuff at 800 and when im not worried at all about extreme contrast, i try to keep it religiously at 320. Get a much cleaner image when you expose for 320. But thats not always easy at night. need a good supply of lights to make that happen.

 

[Ian Planchon]

so basically the sensor raw is 320 ISO but if you shoot for 800 ISO i think it was stated you get an extra stop of latitude in the highlights. So for me I usually shoot daytime outside stuff at 800 and when im not worried at all about extreme contrast, i try to keep it religiously at 320. Get a much cleaner image when you expose for 320. But thats not always easy at night. need a good supply of lights to make that happen.

so a better way to think of ISO in RED land is that its just a tool to help expose the RAW image correctly for the given situation?

 

[Philipe Ratton]

I always expose for 320 in low light situations and 800 in daylight.
But if you check the stoplights, they will always be the same, no matter what iso.
They check the raw image which is iso independent.

 

[Ian Planchon]

this all helped a ton! thanks!

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Philipe's idea will often give you a very good exposure...

 

[Matthew J]

so basically the sensor raw is 320 ISO but if you shoot for 800 ISO i think it was stated you get an extra stop of latitude in the highlights. So for me I usually shoot daytime outside stuff at 800 and when im not worried at all about extreme contrast, i try to keep it religiously at 320. Get a much cleaner image when you expose for 320. But thats not always easy at night. need a good supply of lights to make that happen.

But here's the problem with this thinking that most people do not understand. If you shoot 800 to protect your highlights, you don't automatically get that extra headroom. You have to process the footage at 320 in post and use your curves to actually get that DR. I have found that it's better to just shoot 320 for everything, unless it's low light and I don't mind noise so much, and protect my highlights and know exactly what I am getting. Plus, I tend to get much less noisy footage because I am not underexposing all the time when I really only need to a little bit of the time. I also tend to work more on the highlights with tools that I have on set (nets/diffusion) to keep them in range for a smoother image.

 

[Simon Knight]

I always expose for 320 in low light situations and 800 in daylight.

But there lies the problem in that this goes against all film training... 100iso/asa for daylight and plenty of light and 400iso/asa for low light situations... So it's easy to get it wrong!

SK

 

[Terry VerHaar]

For me, it helps to remind myself that changing ISO changes NOTHING about the recorded image - unless I let it affect the exposure settings I choose. It only effects the monitoring path. RED cameras use NO analog gain in the recording so ISO doesn't change the recorded image AT ALL. (Did I repeat that enough?)

Use the histogram, the goal posts and the stop lights and be confident that the recorded image will be right if those things are right. And, another hint (thanks to Jay Kelley's video at Info-Tech Academy for drilling this one home) - if you have some noise indicated in the left goal post, that doesn't mean your footage will be noisy; it only means that there is potential for noise if you try to push the ISO in post to make what is dark/black more visible. Put another way, if that portion of the screen that is dark and lacks visibility is supposed to be dark/black, then you will be OK on the noise front.

Hope that helps.

 

[Tehben Dean]

The ISO you shoot at will affect the image in that it will most likely effect how you expose. Shooting at 800 means you will give the sensor less light which means when it visually clips the highlights you can bring them back (to a point) in post. While if you shot at 320 and the highlights clip then you don't really have anywhere to go.
Of course if you understand this you could shoot at 320 and either fix your highlights off of camera or just underexposed knowing you will be bumping everything up in post. To me the image is clean enough at 800 so I just leave it at that and try to expose correctly for 800, but if you are after the cleanest possible image and have plenty of control over your lighting then shooting at 320 will give you more exposure (because of your lighting choices) and less noise.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

The ISO you shoot at will affect the image in that it will most likely effect how you expose. ....

If, like I said above, you know the effect of ISO going in, then I disagree that it will effect how you expose. If you aware, then it is up to you to make this decision. I repeat, with a qualifier if it helps, the ISO does NOTHING, in and of itself, to effect the image - UNLESS YOU CHOOSE TO DO SO.

EDIT: As a corollary, turning the brightness way up or way down on your monitor will also effect your image if you let it effect your exposure decision. But, if you are aware of what you are doing, and use the histogram, stop lights and goal posts correctly, you won't let yourself get fooled.

 

[Ian Planchon]

For me, it helps to remind myself that changing ISO changes NOTHING about the recorded image - unless I let it affect the exposure settings I choose. It only effects the monitoring path. RED cameras use NO analog gain in the recording so ISO doesn't change the recorded image AT ALL. (Did I repeat that enough?)

Use the histogram, the goal posts and the stop lights and be confident that the recorded image will be right if those things are right. And, another hint (thanks to Jay Kelley's video at Info-Tech Academy for drilling this one home) - if you have some noise indicated in the left goal post, that doesn't mean your footage will be noisy; it only means that there is potential for noise if you try to push the ISO in post to make what is dark/black more visible. Put another way, if that portion of the screen that is dark and lacks visibility is supposed to be dark/black, then you will be OK on the noise front.

Hope that helps.

that is a big help. I figured it was the case, but wanted to be sure. the left goal post was tripping me up a bit to, but with a little testing I figured that one out. Always nice to get feedback from the community!

 

[jimhare]

Hi Ian,

It's actually incredibly simple, though can become confusing with long explanations.

When you set the ISO to 800 you will naturally stop the lens down to compensate. By doing this you are much less likely to blow out highlights, hence you are "protecting" them.

That's what it comes down to.

In low light your best friend is fast lenses. Very hard to shoot at night using f/2.8 or slower.

Once it kicks in the knowledge is with you forever and starts to become instinct very quickly.

 

[Tehben Dean]

If, like I said above, you know the effect of ISO going in, then I disagree that it will effect how you expose. If you aware, then it is up to you to make this decision. I repeat, with a qualifier if it helps, the ISO does NOTHING, in and of itself, to effect the image - UNLESS YOU CHOOSE TO DO SO.

EDIT: As a corollary, turning the brightness way up or way down on your monitor will also effect your image if you let it effect your exposure decision. But, if you are aware of what you are doing, and use the histogram, stop lights and goal posts correctly, you won't let yourself get fooled.

Assuming you expose with the histogram then yes, If you monitor in RAW the ISO has no effect on exposure, but If you don't then the histogram will change depending on your ISO and thus the ISO will effect your exposure decisions.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I'd say it's kinda silly "only" to expose by the histogram. We make images not histograms and everything in an image is not equally important. Make artistic choices and stand by them!

But good "control" over exposure is essential. "Correctness" otoh...

 

[Ian Planchon]

I'd say it's kinda silly "only" to expose by the histogram. We make images not histograms and everything in an image is not equally important. Make artistic choices and stand by them!

But good "control" over exposure is essential. "Correctness" otoh...

I agree! i just want to make sure I know what I am doing first! kinda like "you have to know the rules before you can break them".