Will the new BlackMagic Camera affect 4K sales.

[Richard Goodwin]

I believe the soccer mom epithet was quoting something Sarah Palin said - about herself, if I'm not mistaken. Sexist?

On the BM camera, I think it's been said already. Perfect for someone who sees the advantage of RAW but simply doesn't have the cash for a Scarlet. In most cases I would think that, given a good level of earnings, most people who buy one of these will probably add a Scarlet to the kit at some stage. See Elsie's post Perhaps this is why the mods have allowed this thread to continue and not bumped it on to dvxuser...

It's not just the Sexism, but the snobbery. The idea that if you're into the BlackMagic camera as a means to shoot your aspirations and abilities are in some lesser class.

As you point out this camera get's people experienced with RAW workflow, wide DR imagery and many of the other attributes RED made possible. Anyone who has the opportunity to own (or rent) and work with this camera or other lower end camera's will be better prepared and able to make more use of higher end tools like RED when they have the chance to use them.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

If a mom (unless very rich) is unlikely to buy a Canon 5D Mk.III to shoot their kids' soccer games, then it's also unlikely they are going to buy a RAW digital cinema camera either, even if in the same price range.

To me, these under-$7000 (let's say) RAW cameras are the equivalent of buying a 16mm Bolex or Beaulieu back in the 1960's, you can call that market "advanced hobbyist" if you want, or "prosumer" today (semi-professional), whatever, but definitely not for your average consumer.

Yep, and those people are the major market for us, because they still present profit for quality (though a lot better quality then they are used to getting).

I am sorry for my wording, as it was probably disrespectful and politically incorrect.
I thought this was a valid expression - as used below:

QUOTE:
"01-10-2009, 08:02 AM #14
Jannard
RED Digital Cinema
join Date: May 2008
Posts: 273

Sometimes this board misses the point. The 8x Fixed Scarlet has a very simple operating mode if you want that. It is mandatory that it be easy enough for a "soccer mom" to use because we are counting on that sale to make up the volume to be able to sell this unit at such a low price.

If you want to chase that sale away, or be disrespectful to it... no problem. It will just cost you money.

Jim"

That is who I meant. It was being respectful, but now t is being used disrespectfully, only a soccer mom, you are only a soccer mom, sort of inclination to it. You got me Peter, I have been away filming my friend's sons's soccer games, who is a top player, with my Kodak, ahh..mmm, movie camera, I must be a soccer mom.

But push button is helpful, press to focus, set zoom travel effect and press button, press button for exposure, then keep pressing button for focus to hunt through until it has the right subject (can light the focus subject area it is trying. That is a new feature Jim), or exposure. Then if not 100% correct fine tune. On the run, much of the industry, a good addition, not something to abandone.

The term seems to imply (as a lot of this discussion implies) that the people using these are not professional or "real" flimmakers. First, you have to start somewhere to build up your work. Second, there are many occasions when you don't need/want a full blown studio setup or high end camera to tell a story or make what you want to make. Third, budget and quality of equipment in and of themselves are not markers of the quality of the work; people have to work within their means.

For reference I have attached some pictures of "soccer mom's" using various non-pro cameras of their days (bolex, etc). I'll leave it to you to identify them and you be the judge if these people are "real" filmmakers/artists or not.

He, He, but that was the easy nice camera, no raw work flow

I believe the soccer mom epithet was quoting something Sarah Palin said - about herself, if I'm not mistaken. Sexist?

On the BM camera, I think it's been said already. Perfect for someone who sees the advantage of RAW but simply doesn't have the cash for a Scarlet. In most cases I would think that, given a good level of earnings, most people who buy one of these will probably add a Scarlet to the kit at some stage. See Elsie's post Perhaps this is why the mods have allowed this thread to continue and not bumped it on to dvxuser...

Yep, we could go up to a lot of people with $200 cameras and tell them "You're dumb, you should be buying a Red Scarlet", but it is what it is and to suite a budget, no realp need to go up, then why go up in price.

 

[Shane Betts]

It's not just the Sexism, but the snobbery. The idea that if you're into the BlackMagic camera as a means to shoot your aspirations and abilities are in some lesser class.

As you point out this camera get's people experienced with RAW workflow, wide DR imagery and many of the other attributes RED made possible. Anyone who has the opportunity to own (or rent) and work with this camera or other lower end camera's will be better prepared and able to make more use of higher end tools like RED when they have the chance to use them.

I'm sure we all have tales of a/ working with a poor genius and b/ working with cashed-up producers with shit for brains. Money does not make talent and I'm dead 100% sure that, over the next few years, there will be wonderful indie content shot on BM's camera, Sony FS100's, Canon and Nikon DSLRs, Panny 4/3s etc. just as there's sure to be absolute crap shot on Epics and Alexas and Phantoms.

Bottom line is that products like this are making it better for us all and - particularly when it comes to camera options - we have Jim and Red to thank. Even Grant Petty, a certifiable genius when it comes to inventing high quality, affordable gear for cash-strapped freelancers to earn money with, has to admit that he's following in Jim's (3k for $3k) footsteps on this one.

 

[Maxi Claudio]

2.5k is a great resolution. We already have computers that can display 2.5k. Enough working area for Image stabilization, and re framing. 2K and 1080p will still be the standard for a couple more years. I don't imagine buying a 4k TV in the next 24 months? Most digital theater projection is 2k. 2.5k is far easier to Manage. Lets see how the image quality goes.

 

[Brian Merlen]

the use of the word "soccer mom" has been in the skateboard community prior to sarah palin. its obviously used offensively. not sure on the origin... that being said most consumers wont know how to use a 5d, black magic cinema, or scarlet....its all handycams baby

I believe the soccer mom epithet was quoting something Sarah Palin said - about herself, if I'm not mistaken. Sexist?

On the BM camera, I think it's been said already. Perfect for someone who sees the advantage of RAW but simply doesn't have the cash for a Scarlet. In most cases I would think that, given a good level of earnings, most people who buy one of these will probably add a Scarlet to the kit at some stage. See Elsie's post Perhaps this is why the mods have allowed this thread to continue and not bumped it on to dvxuser...

 

[Bob Gundu]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer_mom

 

[Colin Hubick]

The Black Magic camera looks great to me. I had a nice conversation with Michael Cioni at NAB about this camera and others, and the common idea that kept coming up is that I could shoot such excellent quality for relatively low cost. I pre-ordered one that day, and am looking forward to using it. I'm looking forward to the super 16 sized sensor, I'm looking forward to form factor, and most of all I'm looking forward to how this little camera doesn't make a huge dent in my bank account.

I think the snobbery around here sometimes is bloody annoying and unfortunate. And usually the biggest snobs have the least to offer, wonder why that is??

 

[Gunleik Groven]

The Black Magic camera looks great to me. I had a nice conversation with Michael Cioni at NAB about this camera and others, and the common idea that kept coming up is that I could shoot such excellent quality for relatively low cost. I pre-ordered one that day, and am looking forward to using it. I'm looking forward to the super 16 sized sensor, I'm looking forward to form factor, and most of all I'm looking forward to how this little camera doesn't make a huge dent in my bank account.

I think the snobbery around here sometimes is bloody annoying and unfortunate. And usually the biggest snobs have the least to offer, wonder why that is??

I won't go into the snobs part of your statement, but generally I find the idea deep focus = non filmic rather absurd.

 

[Mike P.]

There are far too many examples of 16/S16 features that prove the format's (frame size's) viability. Didn't hurt locker win best pic and best cinematography? What about Slum Dog - SI2k is 2/3s, right? Also how many features and tv shows were shot on the Sony F23, SI2k, F900/950, etc.? If you can't make footage out of those cameras have a "film look", it's your problem, not the format's. Being that the BMDCC is more akin to those cameras/frame/film size than any other $3k camera to come before it (due to RAW, 2.5k, and 13stop latitude) it's a fairly applicable comparison.

Again, the debate here is whether or not this cheap intro to RAW will increase or decrease RED sales. I think it will decrease them, only because the people in this price range never intended on paying $15k for Scarlet anyway. Then, boom, this camera gets announced while they were saving pennies to get an SX and most (if not all) will be more than content with what the BMDCC offers. Assuming the image isn't crap, as far as I can tell, the only thing holding this camera back is it's sensor size; on paper, that's it's only major/real-world hinderance when compared to Scarlet. You could argue the benefits of SX's frame rates and r3d RAW compression and RED in general, but for the average user (read most users) those benefits quickly get vaporized by the massive price difference.

By the way, I'm surprised you guys are arguing over the semantics of the use and implications of the term "soccer mom." That's ridiculous.

 

[Jay Birch]

All this talk makes me a bit sad that the Scarlet fixed never made it to market.

That camera was like someone had asked me personally to write down my perfect spec sheet

 

[Richard Goodwin]

I won't go into the snobs part of your statement, but generally I find the idea deep focus = non filmic rather absurd.

Shallow focus is an aesthetic that is currently in style. If you look at films from the studio era and films influenced by that era; deep focus was actually quite common. Some early examples would be Citizen Kane, many MGM Musicals; and later, The Train, and fight sequences in Raging Bull. So, it's more that it's not contemporary; not that it's not "filmic".

Again, the debate here is whether or not this cheap intro to RAW will increase or decrease RED sales. I think it will decrease them, only because the people in this price range never intended on paying $15k for Scarlet anyway.

By the way, I'm surprised you guys are arguing over the semantics of the use and implications of the term "soccer mom." That's ridiculous.

If you look at markets for emerging technologies (and fully RAW cinema is still emerging and growing) new players that innovate in specific space or price point tend to grow the market for other stronger players. iPhone being a prime example. The Prius for hybrid vehicles and electrics (now there are many choices). In this case exposure to good DR and RAW will mean that will become more and more the "standard". As newer filmmakers and other people doing motion work get used to this it will become the inevitable choice. As they move up they will want to continue to shoot RAW. This will lead to more rentals and sales.

People start somewhere (that last pic in my previous posting was Stephen Speilberg btw - who shot parts of his first feature and shorts on a Bolex). The more people get used to what RED and BlackMagic offer for digital cinema the more all segments of the market will grow. In addition the price for 4K will come down over time.

 

[Mike P.]

If you look at markets for emerging technologies (and fully RAW cinema is still emerging and growing) new players that innovate in specific space or price point tend to grow the market for other stronger players. iPhone being a prime example. The Prius for hybrid vehicles and electrics (now there are many choices). In this case exposure to good DR and RAW will mean that will become more and more the "standard". As newer filmmakers and other people doing motion work get used to this it will become the inevitable choice. As they move up they will want to continue to shoot RAW. This will lead to more rentals and sales.

People start somewhere (that last pic in my previous posting was Stephen Speilberg btw - who shot parts of his first feature and shorts on a Bolex). The more people get used to what RED and BlackMagic offer for digital cinema the more all segments of the market will grow. In addition the price for 4K will come down over time.

That's still the same point; what I'm saying is, as these BMDCC users out-grow the $3k camera, chances are the BMDCC2 or s35 version will be available... Or other cheaper RAW/4k alternatives from Sony/Canon/etc will be available. In either case, the BMDCC postpones the purchase of a much more expensive RED/4k camera and who knows what will be available (and for what price) when those users feel the need to upgrade from their BMDCCs.

 

[Kirk.Attard]

I am saving for a Scarlet and will continue to do so no matter what other cameras came out this year. Though some are quite good when you consider everything all are costlier than the Scarlet. IF you add the upgrade and a 4k recorder to the Sony for example then will surpass the Scarlet for sure. Still no HDRx and no upgrade paths to a terrific sensor like the Dragon.

I think the BMD camera is good value but still not an option for truly cinematic purposes. The lack of s35 sensor makes the lenses choice rather awkward if not difficult. I'm sure that noone who chooses the BMD camera will buy Super16 cine lenses which I'm not even entirely sure they cover the whole sensor. A set of Zeiss cine super16 lenses amount to many times the cost of the camera.

I am preparing preproduction for a local mini series with a pilot hopefully screening at local cinemas and can see no other option than Scarlet. With the new Adobe cs6 and hopefullt new version of red rocket there is absolutely no reason why anyone should be afraid of handling 4k.!

My2c.

 

[conrad gaunt]

I'm sure we all have tales of a/ working with a poor genius and b/ working with cashed-up producers with shit for brains. Money does not make talent and I'm dead 100% sure that, over the next few years, there will be wonderful indie content shot on BM's camera, Sony FS100's, Canon and Nikon DSLRs, Panny 4/3s etc. just as there's sure to be absolute crap shot on Epics and Alexas and Phantoms.

Bottom line is that products like this are making it better for us all and - particularly when it comes to camera options - we have Jim and Red to thank. Even Grant Petty, a certifiable genius when it comes to inventing high quality, affordable gear for cash-strapped freelancers to earn money with, has to admit that he's following in Jim's (3k for $3k) footsteps on this one.

100% on everything.. although I may slightly disagree that they're following in Jims footsteps, anymore more than Jim is following in Canons "raw"/"delay processing until post, do it all with dsp" footsteps (although Jim always said canon had the right approach with raw and post)

Jim only went part way down the 3k path, then stopped! Blackmagic have made different decisions.. gone further, and made something very interesting

I wish I could afford to "play" with our epic,.. i will however "play" with the blackmagic.. can't wait to start debayering footage with my stricktly "non-realtime" debayer algos, thanks to the open source capture format available.. deposit paid

 

[Chosei Funahara]

I love the direction of BlackMagic and fill it up the original Scarlet 3K spot.
When I think back the 1080p $200 GoPro HD's idea, I thought that was crazy, but results were wonderful.
It could become Hollywood's next 35mm Eyemo…

 

[David Rasberry]

All this talk makes me a bit sad that the Scarlet fixed never made it to market.

That camera was like someone had asked me personally to write down my perfect spec sheet

Amen to that. Even if they dropped the fixed lens and just released the Scarlet 2/3" with a PL mount to its original specs it would still be a great option.

 

[Elsie N]

That's still the same point; what I'm saying is, as these BMDCC users out-grow the $3k camera, chances are the BMDCC2 or s35 version will be available... Or other cheaper RAW/4k alternatives from Sony/Canon/etc will be available. In either case, the BMDCC postpones the purchase of a much more expensive RED/4k camera and who knows what will be available (and for what price) when those users feel the need to upgrade from their BMDCCs.

True that. But RED has found its identity. I think they aren't trying to be like the other camera companies out there who try to sell something to everybody. RED seems just to be trying to market only to Somebodys.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Maybe, somebodies knows everybody. And maybe every professional or good hobbyist is somebody.

 

[Mark K.]

That's still the same point; what I'm saying is, as these BMDCC users out-grow the $3k camera, chances are the BMDCC2 or s35 version will be available... Or other cheaper RAW/4k alternatives from Sony/Canon/etc will be available. In either case, the BMDCC postpones the purchase of a much more expensive RED/4k camera and who knows what will be available (and for what price) when those users feel the need to upgrade from their BMDCCs.

'Outgrow' it how?

I'm really quite confused by this 'more is necessary' mentality we seem to have developed with digital cinema. Certainly better performance and better looking images are always preferable, but once we've reached a point of diminishing returns on image quality (which I'd argue we did with the arrival of Epic and Alexa - where image quality is practically on par with the S35mm film we've been used to in the past), what more do we NEED?

Just because people can upgrade, doesn't mean they need to. It generally has in the past with digital because the image quality we've had at our disposal has lacked for certain things - but with things as good as they are now, it simply isn't necessary in the same way it was before, we've reached the standard that's been our benchmark for so many years, and whilst eventually surpassing it will be great - good enough is good enough for our various audiences, and that greatly diminishes the certainty that people will 'outgrow' this new generation of cameras.

 

[Shane Betts]

100% on everything.. although I may slightly disagree that they're following in Jims footsteps, anymore more than Jim is following in Canons "raw"/"delay processing until post, do it all with dsp" footsteps (although Jim always said canon had the right approach with raw and post)

Jim only went part way down the 3k path, then stopped! Blackmagic have made different decisions.. gone further, and made something very interesting

I wish I could afford to "play" with our epic,.. i will however "play" with the blackmagic.. can't wait to start debayering footage with my stricktly "non-realtime" debayer algos, thanks to the open source capture format available.. deposit paid

But neither Canon or Nikon, nor any other camera manufacturer came up with low cost, 4k, compressed RAW, s35 sensor. Matter of fact, nobody has even now...

What I meant by following in Jim's footsteps was a high quality, low cost RAW camera.