Will the new BlackMagic Camera affect 4K sales.

[Wayne Morellini]

I would rather leave the last post, as last, but:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer_mom

He, he, that is what I was thinking the definition was too

By the way, I'm surprised you guys are arguing over the semantics of the use and implications of the term "soccer mom." That's ridiculous.

Just the intention.

All this talk makes me a bit sad that the Scarlet fixed never made it to market.

That camera was like someone had asked me personally to write down my perfect spec sheet

Jay, look up my old postings over at dvinfo, around 2004, you can see the specs for the Scarlet, and the Red One, there, in my marketing plan. It was meant to be a compromised camera so not to challenge the top end camera, so don't miss it, it was meant for a 2006 market, and be replaced by 4k version after that. This is 2012, now is the time of 8k.

A lot of things went wrong in those original digital cinema camera projects with elitests, and people hogging the limelight but delivering nothing. No camera from that angle has not suffered as far as I know.

I was also approached to work on a former proposed Black Magic Design camera.

 

[Adnan Siddiqui]

For me, its the Resolve (like many) that seals the deal for the BM camera as a prosumer alternative to my Epic.

 

[David Rasberry]

True that. But RED has found its identity. I think they aren't trying to be like the other camera companies out there who try to sell something to everybody. RED seems just to be trying to market only to Somebodys.

I think Red has its hands full dealing with the two cameras, software, and all of the modules and accessories they are making for now.
No one knows what the future may hold though.

 

[Michael Moreno]

Red will always step up and up and up
They have since day one
It is the essence of Red

 

[Rob Ruffo]

The term seems to imply (as a lot of this discussion implies) that the people using these are not professional or "real" flimmakers. First, you have to start somewhere to build up your work. Second, there are many occasions when you don't need/want a full blown studio setup or high end camera to tell a story or make what you want to make. Third, budget and quality of equipment in and of themselves are not markers of the quality of the work; people have to work within their means.

For reference I have attached some pictures of "soccer mom's" using various non-pro cameras of their days (bolex, etc). I'll leave it to you to identify them and you be the judge if these people are "real" filmmakers/artists or not.

Yes OK but audiences have become much more visually demanding, and a 1970s bolex-look probably would not cut it today. Let's count the cinema-de-verite look feature films that have been successful in the last 15 years, that do not, like Blair Witch, Paranormal, etc., have a plot gimmick that justifies that look. Can't think of any? Me neither.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Problem with the BlackMagic camera is that it's a s16mm sensor, not 35. And also that 2.5K isn't enough. In the year where everyone moves over to 4K, it doesn't feel like a good option to go with s16mm 2.5K.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Problem with the BlackMagic camera is that it's a s16mm sensor, not 35. And also that 2.5K isn't enough. In the year where everyone moves over to 4K, it doesn't feel like a good option to go with s16mm 2.5K.

To each his own...

You just described two of the most atractive points with the BM cam to me.

 

[Peter Moretti]

For me, its the Resolve (like many) that seals the deal for the BM camera as a prosumer alternative to my Epic.

BMD seems to be making Resolve into their RedCine-X. Pretty shrewd of them. I don't think BMD is targeting the Red market directly. But Grant Petty vs Jim Jannard, this could really turn out to be Godzilla vs Megalon.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

To each his own...

You just described two of the most atractive points with the BM cam to me.

Why is 2.5K good to you? It's already old by the time films shot on this premiers...

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Why is 2.5K good to you? It's already old by the time films shot on this premiers...

I do a lot of TV. 2,5k is what the doctor ordered for 2k&/1080. And it is very manageable. Add the prores recording option and I have my little light dream sidekick cam to the Epic (given that the format holds up ok).

Nope. It is not for stills, and it is not for 4k, which BTW is not rolled out a lot and probably won't be for a while here.
And frankly, good 2k projection can be very good for all but the largest theatres. I am much more annoyed by the 3D element being left constantly on, even for 2d screenings, and using 3d silverscreens for projection of 2d, than of the lack of resolution...

 

[Jay Birch]

Why is 2.5K good to you? It's already old by the time films shot on this premiers...

As has been said ad.nauseum.... If S16mm films like Black Swan and the Hurt Locker can win oscars.... A 2K film will have no problems. I view the BMCC as a digital S16

 

[Gunleik Groven]

LOL. This place is sometimes fun.
I work, breathe and enjoy RED every working day, and probably push through more RED material over a year than a few others here.
Still I allways feel a bit like a traitor, when I say that I see good things in other systems... And that resolution isn't really why I advocate the system a lot...

Fun world!

 

[Elsie N]

I'm just asking because I'm curious... is it easier to shoot a Black Swan or Hurt Locker on S16, from start to finish, than it would have been on an Alexa or Epic? By easier, I mean camera work, workflow, post, and cost? How do they compare other than aesthetics?

 

[David Rasberry]

I'm just asking because I'm curious... is it easier to shoot a Black Swan or Hurt Locker on S16, from start to finish, than it would have been on an Alexa or Epic? By easier, I mean camera work, workflow, post, and cost? How do they compare other than aesthetics?

In the case of Hurt Locker 16mm was chosen for field reliability under harsh environmental conditions that are very unfriendly to digital cams, and for light unobtrusive mobile setups.

16mm for Black Swan was chosen for lightweight single operator mobility and greater depth of field for shooting dance sequences on a stage. Lots of dynamic movement with hand held camera work in tight spaces that the smaller format is well suited to. 35mm would need too much light to get the depth of field.

Digital Bolex updates.

The Bolex will have a fixed 180 degree shutter when initially released.
They have added a mini-hdmi port and a power out port to support the range of popular aftermarket EVF's. HDMI output will be monochrome 1080p. The built in LCD will no longer swivel due to the space needed for the HDMI board.
They are developing a line of modest priced high quality S16mm C-mount primes and a rotating lens turret like the original Bolex had. The lens turret will be an interchangeable mount option.
They have changed from compact flash to SD format cards.
The camera will record up to 32fps at the full sensor resolution of 2336 x 1752 4:3 format. This was added to the original format options: 2048x1152, 1920x1080, 1280x720,720x480.
Frame rates max: 32fps for FF, 2k, 1080p. 60fps@720p, 90fps@480p.

This camera at its most basic will be truly shoot out of the box ready. All you will need add to start shooting is SD cards and a lens.

 

[Christopher Mills]

RE: Alexa...
for the handheld camera operator... it could be... the Alexa is bulkier than many super 16m cameras.
for the DoP... maybe.. a film experienced DoP can light and pick emulsions so that blacks and highlights are closer to color correct right out of Telecine... but that advantage is slipping away fast, as on set grading is proven.

The bigger advantage for a DoP on a smaller budget of film is going to sound at odds with the RAW paradigm..

They can bake in a look with film that will survive more second opinions from the post production chain.
This is more an issue with lower budget projects.
Because RAW (and digital aquitision in general) IS so flexible, producers frequently wave goodbye to the DoP at the end of the shoot, and may pick colorists and editors who take the look far from what the DoP planned with the director. I keep running across inexperienced producers hiring "post" who do not really have colorist skills, and who muddle through with whatever software is built into their NLE.

That's a business decision as much as a creative one, but it can make you want to take your name off a project.

I think that the cost is probably not very different overall.... you just write checks to different vendors... they add up to very similar totals.

Both movies involved some vfx (more obvious on Black Swan) which would likely not have been shot on film.

 

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

BMC looks like a cool little digital RAW (!) camera with close to S16 sensor. Basically if they'll decide to deliver 3K instead of 2.5K it would be the exactly 3K for $3K thing many people was (and still is apparently) excited about (me included). For me the Scarlet (especially with Dragon update next year, oh yeah) is S35 RAW "film camera replacement" or whatever you call it, for under $20K. You can say the media is still expensive, but most of the "raw"-level competition sticks with external recorders whatsoever. Blackmagic looks (to me) like exactly same thing as "grown up" Scarlet, but for S16. Have seen some footage from a BMC prototype build, I'm no longer interested what Canon offers under $10K, really. Yes, BMC has smaller sensor, yes their ef-mount is funky, but images it produces, the range, oh my...

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Problem with the BlackMagic camera is that it's a s16mm sensor, not 35. And also that 2.5K isn't enough. In the year where everyone moves over to 4K, it doesn't feel like a good option to go with s16mm 2.5K.

The truth is probably that they thought they could not record uncompressed raw fast enough, but 500 megabyte per second ssd is out there that can do 4k at 50fps. Who was advising them. As is, the camera is not as interesting without 50p plus 2.5k modes. There is a 4k ready 16mm cheap sensor used in the Nikon J1. This thing of not being able to locate a s35mm sensor for a $3k camera is curious. And will people stop the 3k for $3k stuff (not you Vadim), it is nowhere near 3k?

 

[David Rasberry]

The truth is probably that they thought they could not record uncompressed raw fast enough, but 500 megabyte per second ssd is out there that can do 4k at 50fps. Who was advising them. As is, the camera is not as interesting without 50p plus 2.5k modes. There is a 4k ready 16mm cheap sensor used in the Nikon J1. This thing of not being able to locate a s35mm sensor for a $3k camera is curious. And will people stop the 3k for $3k stuff (not you Vadim), it is nowhere near 3k?

Based on Digital Bolex raising their full Kickstarter funding in only 48 hours I would say there is plenty of market interest in a modest cost 16mm raw format camera. However S16 lenses won't cover the BMC format, it is too big. More like 4/3 format or APS-c/S35 lenses needed to cover the BMC, so it loses the compact optics advantages of a true 16mm format, especially when it comes to lightweight, fast, wide range zoom lenses.

 

[nigelsmith]

This camera at its most basic will be truly shoot out of the box ready. All you will need add to start shooting is SD cards and a lens.

Isn't that an Oxymoron like "fresh frozen" or "military intelligence"?
A true shoot out of the box ready camera has a lens attached and recording media included!

 

[Demetri Zuev]

BMC is a great offer, but I don't think it'll hurt 4K sales or RED cameras in particular in any way.

The only thing that confuses me about BMC is the workflow. Can someone explain to me the Cinema DNG format? The main thing that interests me is when, for instance, I shoot 1 second of footage at 24fps do I get a single file that is 1 second long and contains 24 frames (like r3d and any other conventional video file format), or do I get 24 separate DNG files that get assembled in a motion stream by editing or some other kind of software?