Will the new BlackMagic Camera affect 4K sales.

[RayFrisby]

III

 

[Bob Gundu]

Soon there will be a camera for everyone. Everyone wins. It's the Chinese fellows that are making the RAW camera that will be in trouble with sales. Actually Ikonoscope will also face challenges. RED have nothing to worry about.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

It's basically the scarlet I wished for as a sidekick to the Epic less the optics (which I cared for) and the high fps (which wasm't crucial to me)... That is given that it does perform.

Light, compact, RAW + good codec.

If anything makes any sense - which it may well not - this is basically bad for Canon and Sony, not RED...

looking foreward to check the DNG format.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Soon there will be a camera for everyone. Everyone wins. It's the Chinese fellows that are making the RAW camera that will be in trouble with sales. Actually Ikonoscope will also face challenges. RED have nothing to worry about.

The amount of cameras will increase, so will the quality level of the top preforming cameras. Thats known to Mr Jannard and the others I think, they did R1 then before even most people got to understand what that actually was they got the roadmap for Epic, the FF and so on.. So the race will not stop any time soon I think

 

[Scott Crawley]

Just to echo Bob and Gunliek:

1. If it sucks all bets are off .

2. Red has no camera anywhere near that price point, so it isn't going to effect their sales much if at all.

 

[Ron Lagerlof]

As a BMD reseller, and a RED owner/shooter, I think it is safe to say that RDC has nothing to worry about, except for maybe at the very low end where some might not be able to get in. IMHO, the BMD camera takes a direct bead on the DSLR group. They don't have a RAW workflow when it comes to motion with the exception of the Nikon D4 that will output uncompressed video directly out of the HDMI port as long as you don't have any CF cards installed. Hence, you're tethered to another box and you've got an HDMI cable between the camera and your media... The BMD camera is also stuck at standard frame rates, also like DSLRs. And, I would challenge it's ability to output a clean still from motion. However, all that said, I may buy a demo one for my kid and see what he can do with it. (He doesn't get Dad's REDs... not yet, anyway)

 

[Jason DeSimone]

IMO the current camera released by BMD will not effect the professional market all that much (4K or 2K). The reality is despite the great sepcs for the price point etc its a 4/3 camera and I would not expect it to be a go to in any way for the professional market. If you look at the design of the camera as well as the way it's being marketed this is clearly a product that is geared toward bringing cinema quality to more personal applications. That being said, I also feel that this camera is an entry level product for BMD in the camera market and should it be received well (which I have a feeling it will be) we can expect to see a more professional full frame camera at NAB next year. Of course this just an opinion, but it makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Before the 5D saw repeated action on television and professional film sets I would have agreed with you, but no longer. FWIW

The BMD camera could go anywhere. EDIT: But that doesn't mean it will impact sales at the $15k plus level.

IMO the current camera released by BMD will not effect the professional market all that much (4K or 2K). The reality is despite the great sepcs for the price point etc its a 4/3 camera and I would not expect it to be a go to in any way for the professional market. If you look at the design of the camera as well as the way it's being marketed this is clearly a product that is geared toward bringing cinema quality to more personal applications. That being said, I also feel that this camera is an entry level product for BMD in the camera market and should it be received well (which I have a feeling it will be) we can expect to see a more professional full frame camera at NAB next year. Of course this just an opinion, but it makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Richard Goodwin]

Let's say "will it affect 4K sales? And, I think that really means 4K RAW. Because when RED talks about 4K acquisition and display they really are implying RAW capture and post workflow.

Based on that I think Blacmkagic can only help 4K RAW. Their camera fills a huge gap with 2.5K RAW capture to (off the shelf) SSD. It's clearly targeted toward indie filmmakers, art, documentary, and smaller budget creatives. Their choice of having an EF mount (not PL) and most of the necessaries built in show that. What that will do is energize a HUGE range of creative people from the most experimental independents to upstart commercial houses to be acquiring digital motion with good dynamic range and feed that into a RAW workflow. Once that starts becoming the new "norm" it's going to be hard to go back to HD capture. And, the enticement to step up to 4K is going to be even bigger after experiencing good DR at 2.5 K. At the same time the price for purchase or rental of 4K gear will only come down over time (RED releasing lower cost media is just one sign).

So I think you can call a camera like the Blackmagic a "gateway camera". It serves as a taste of the real possibilities of digital in terms of cost and quality. It may not be perfect. But, they made design choices to keep it at a very attractive price point. Based on interest and buzz, and the pure specs of the camera if it delivers what it claims to it will be a huge seller and become a new standard the same way the 5D Mark II.

That being said some 4K makers will fare better than others. From my point of view this is a shot across the bow of Canon (if not a missile directed at them). Their new line seems confused and they have an expensive 4K solution on one end and a middling HD solution at the other. Specifically the Mark III could really be hurt by this. More broadly any potential influence on the Post Industry Canon had by introducing a RAW codec on their high end cams is hurt too. (Why they did not have one new codec on all their cams is a mystery to me - or just adopt prorez/DNxHD etc). The BlackMagic on the other hand outputs footage that plugs directly into standard post tools and workflows. That is really the second exciting part. Unlike the 5D you don't need to transcode etc to get working.

In general when you look at disruptive technologies in emerging markets bold leaders often help the competition by building excitement and growing the Market. RED is an example of that. They broke price, technology, and quality barriers for 4K raw. The Arri Alexa was helped by RED getting major players comfortable and trusting of digital cinema. A second example would be Roku and appleTV. AppleTV actually helped Roku; not hurt. Why? because it helped build the idea and market for an internet only streaming set top box that could entertain you but be outside the Cable TV ecosystem.

In the same way the BlackMagic camera is disrupting the market while taking expectations to a higher level. That can only make people more hungry for high quality digital cinema.

 

[Shane Betts]

The BMD camera looks like it could be very handy. Knowing the way those guys work, it promises much, M4/3 sensor aside. But I don't see a lot of people moving from a Scarlet to one; unless (like me) they simply can't afford the entry price. So I agree, it's going to affect Nikon, Canon, Sony and Panasonic sales much more the Red's.

 

[PatrickFaith]

I see it as a huge training ground for digital RAW, something the VDSLR scene (and the c300, etc ... ) doesn't have. The more people that understand the importance of RAW, the better it will be for RED - and for movie making in general. I still am amazed how often people don't "get" raw - there's almost a generational gap ... the old film guys get raw, the young computer generation gets raw ... but their is this mass of "tape" guys in between that just don't want to understand raw.

 

[Tim Sutherland]

Did anybody notice that you only get about 30 minutes of raw on a 256gb ssd? To me that means most people are going to be shooting to the other codecs, as that's pretty hefty data for only 2.5k, but you can get 10x that in prores for example. Also the main reason I probably won't het one is the screen might be nearly impossible to see in day exterior and then you're in the same boat as dslr adding a bunch of wonky accessories to make it work.

I just don't know if needing a terabyte for every 2 hours shot is very practical for indie and low budget use. Really shows the value of redcode.

Tim

 

[Les Dittert]

Many will transcode to Cineform RAW at speeds faster than you could have copied off the DNG's from to SSD to a normal hard drive. 5:1 easy savings in storage.

Increasing RAW awareness for the unwashed DSLR masses will boost RED sales from filter up. I'm glad Nikon and Canon are going to get slammed with reality. 'Bout time!

Did anybody notice that you only get about 30 minutes of raw on a 256gb ssd? To me that means most people are going to be shooting to the other codecs, as that's pretty hefty data for only 2.5k, but you can get 10x that in prores for example. Also the main reason I probably won't het one is the screen might be nearly impossible to see in day exterior and then you're in the same boat as dslr adding a bunch of wonky accessories to make it work.

I just don't know if needing a terabyte for every 2 hours shot is very practical for indie and low budget use. Really shows the value of redcode.

Tim

 

[Alexander Thomson]

...you're in the same boat as dslr adding a bunch of wonky accessories to make it work.

I just don't know if needing a terabyte for every 2 hours shot is very practical for indie and low budget use. Really shows the value of redcode.

Tim

I wouldn't buy RED cameras if it wasn't for redcode. Honestly, it just wouldn't be a RED camera if it only shot ProRes/dnxhd. That's why RED hasn't made a RED branded proxy module. It's not their philosophy and other players in the market take care of it too Pix/Ninja/Samurai. I don't think BMD's camera will affect RED sales. Two totally different markets. The 2.5k camera is somewhat of an intermediate between the T3i/60D/7D/5D market and full blown 4k raw. That's great, except that for me at least, there isn't a pressing need for something to go in the middle of that market. To each their own, I'm sure there's a lot of people who are really interested in that cam. I'm happy with red

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I'm going to buy the BMD Cinema Camera.

Its not a Red.

Its roughly comparable to a Scarlet at 3K. Both cameras have a similar sensor area.

Scarlet shoots 48fps RAW and can crop the sensor to give even faster frame rates ... but really its a marginal advantage. Especially if BMD delivers faster frame rates, as they have said they want to do.

(And really ... they could realistically deliver 60fps at 2.5K with CinemaDNG)

Now, even if I owned the two Epics I am saving for ... I'd still buy this camera!

First off, it comes with a license of Resolve! It also includes UltraScope software ... which may well work with other BMD i/o devices, and that possibility is exciting! That means its really priced around $1500 for the camera. Its super incredible at that price point.

Leaving that aside, it certainly kicks the tail of any real or proposed DSLR for video work. This camera can definitely replace my 7D for almost everything I use that camera for. The main exception is that I use the 7D as a finder on 4K Red (and other S35 like Alexa) shoots. Also stills are still much nicer on the 7D. Only the 1DC has a feature that outperforms the BMD Cinema ... and at that price point just get a Scarlet!

So. I'm still a Red man ... but if anything I feel the BMD camera cements the plan I already have to just skip Scarlet and go straight for Epic , which is really the camera I always wanted. (I'll probably get Dragon ... because it will be free with my $50k+ kit, but the original Epic specs are just fine.)

Coming to the question asked by the OP ... all of this is why I don't think the BMD camera will affect 4K or Red.

This will be one of the nicest 2K/1080p camera options available at any price, despite its limitations.

It won't affect 4K because it doesn't shoot 4K, and 4K is inexorable. It will come.

I do think the next version of the BMD Cinema Camera will be VERY interesting, and you can pretty much bet there will be a next version.

I'd bet on an even simpler camera with an S35 sensor and the same recording options, but with compressed 4K ProRes and DNxHD. I expect we'll see the 12 bit 4444 version of ProRes for 4K. BMD may license Cineform, or develop their own RAW codec.

It will end up looking a lot like a Scarlet does today ... but they'll release it when its much more cost effective. Scarlet was bleeding edge when announced... today its on the leading edge of "economy" 4K ... in a year or two it will be on the trailing edge of 4K technology, and that's when you'll see the BMD 4K camera ... when BMD can sell it for $5000 at most, which means building it out of commodity components.

In the meantime, I am going to enjoy the hell out of playing with this thing! I can afford to take it out to play on things I could never justify taking a Red out of the bag for.

Oh ... what this camera will definitely do is improve acceptance of RAW! That can only help Red.

RAW is a very easy workflow right now, as opposed to a few years ago. This camera will give loads of film makers experience with that. Red will be different ... but it will be details of a process film makers know, and thus a lot easier to deal with.

Ultimately this camera will be good for Red.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

But I believe it is valid to ask
Seeing that Jim and the Red team have done so much to develop a 3-5K (dollar) camera i.e. the 2/3 Scarlet
Is it crazy to think they may resurrect a lower priced version of the Scarlet with an optional Pro Res/ DNxHD Recording option ?
It may make sense if the figures add up and they can get it to market soon !!!!

If anything, this development reinforces their commitment to NOT do a 3-5K dollar camera. RED likes to standout, not be part of the crowd.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

There is one glaring problem with this camera, although I know it's got a solution. The internal battery is estimated to last 90 minutes based on BM spec sheet. Two hours to charge it when the camera is not in use. In other words, you pretty much won't be using the internal battery for real shoots. So, you have to use a 4-pin solution which means you are adding cost and bulk to your setup. Not saying this will prevent people from shooting with it, but I do wonder if this is a bit of a design flaw. Imagine if they had incorporated the Canon battery system, of which many people own tons of batteries that would have been an easy transfer of resources and saved a lot of people money.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Imagine if they had incorporated the Canon battery system, of which many people own tons of batteries that would have been an easy transfer of resources and saved a lot of people money.

I have to wonder if Canon would be willing to license that to a disruptive competitor.

 

[Bob Gundu]

You have to license a battery system???

I have to wonder if Canon would be willing to license that to a disruptive competitor.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I have to wonder if Canon would be willing to license that to a disruptive competitor.

I'm not sure what the licensing entails but i do know that other companies have taken advantage of that system such as SmallHD. And there are several companies that make replacement batteries for that system.

Steve it seems Blackmagic are also working on a seperate handle for the camera with power and control features,
reports point to something that can be mounted on different rigs and configurations. Not sure if this is true but it
would make sense and is prob something they have borrowed from Red.

That would be interesting. The power and the audio are two areas I'm very curious to see in action. I'm also hoping for expanded lens mounting systems. This BM camera would be for very specific purposes, so won't affect how I use REDs that's for sure.