Will the new BlackMagic Camera affect 4K sales.

[David Rasberry]

Fixed Scarlet is dead, and as much as RED could probably hammer out an amazing 2/3rd camera, the problem is they'd never hit that $3k target... Wait, let me rephrase: even if they could get it cheaper than $3k, how much cheaper would it be? $1k? $200? And at that price point, how much profit would they be making? Probably not enough to warrant the headaches. More over - and again, assuming the BMDCC doesn't blow - why would anyone spend $6k on a fixed 2/3" Scarlet (unless it did 120fps, etc.) when they could get a non-proprietary and ready-to-shoot s16/RAW equivalent in the BMDCC for $3k? It just seems far too competitive and the margins far too small to make it worthwhile for RED.

Not interested in a fixed Scarlet, but Red could release a 3k brain with interchangeable mounts and the frame rate specs they already demonstrated for say half the price of Scarlet-X. Doesn;t have to be under $3k. Why do people spend $6-10k on 1/3" HD camcorders by the hundreds of thousands? Not all of us want or need large sensor cameras. At present there is no true S16mm/16mm/2/3" format production camera under $10k, Ikonoskope comes closest to the mark for raw cameras. It would be really nice to have a practical run and gun small format raw camera with the original Scarlet specs and frame rates. A practical field shooting package under $10k is the goal, it doesn't have to be consumer cheap. Nature and action sports doc guys would kill for a camera like this. It is at present an under served market segment as the amazing Kickstarter campaign results for the Digital Bolex show.

 

[Yusuf Thakur]

+1
When people talk about competing with a 3K Camera I really believe they are missing the point.

IMO the question is can Red afford not to get involved and compete in this market if they can afford to ?
My Reasoning:

Red sales are not just about Red Cameras, but the adoption of Red Products, Accessories and the R3D workflow. As well as sustaining and growing their business.

When buying a Red product you are also buying into a Red ecosystem that includes accessories and workflow. Most of Red's Accessories and Media are proprietary.
When I say proprietary I mean they are custom made for Red products and workflow.
Not entirely but mostly (you still cannot buy an off the shelf SSD that will work with a Scarlet or Epic)

THIS IS NOT A COMPLAINT JUST AN OBSERVATION.

So like Apple, Red control their Hardware and Software (almost exclusively).
This has it's advantages and disadvantages.
Unlike Blackmagic Red cannot easily pick and choose alternatives, or cheaper options when available. They are in part limited to what they have developed.

So if Blackmagic (or any other company) produces a cheaper product at a lower cost / price (simply because they have used off the shelf technology)
where does this leave Red ?

I think the answer is If they can they must compete in any market that seriously threatens their sales.

If Red believe the Blackmagic Camera is a serious threat to Scarlet sales then it follow it's also a threat to the Red ecosystem.
If Red believes this is not a problem and wont affect Scarlet sales, then it's a matter of continuing as is.

I believe it would be a mistake if Red can afford to make a 3K Resolution Scarlet not to do so.

Not producing a camera will simply hand market share to Blackmagic.

Red has already developed an (almost) ready to ship 3K camera, they have done the groundwork.
if I remember rightly the Scarlet 2/3 Fixed package was advertised at 5-6K (this included basic accessories)
Not much more than the Blackmagic camera with an SSD and lens.
I agree with David however I think the interchangeable RED 3K option is the better one.

If Blackmagic is a Scarlet competitor and Red can afford to produce a 3K camera
then the simple answer is Red has got to sink any new competitors before they emerge, even if it costs them.


They can't do this to Canon or Sony (yet) simply because they are established camera companies.
Blackmagic is not yet established as a Camera manufacturer nor is it a Digital Bolex.
Unlike Digital Bolex Blackmagic has serious resources behind them, and are not going anywhere.
The only way to stop them is if Red can compete with them on price and deliver a 3K camera that
persuades them this market is not for them.

My 2 Cent

Its a bit too late in the day for that, RED choose to stay away from the 3K arena, they have made it clear that it is 4K or higher.
It took a non traditional camera manufacturer like RED to make a RED camera and now BMD has come up with a 3K in camera Raw based camera.
I bet in a few months or a year a company like GO Pro will come out with a 2K -3K camera. Why because they have the technology to do 2K/3K/4K
recording via there recent acquisition of Cineform, again they will be a non traditional manufacturer.

The big boys have been sitting on the fence, since the consumer market according to them does not need anything better than HD at moment.

Yusuf Thakur
VFX.Dubai
www.vfxme.com

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Ok I know we are not meant to discuss other cameras on the forum.
But I believe it is valid to ask if the new BM Camera will affect 4K Camera sales ?
Even though it's not 4K, it is a Digital Film camera and must have some
impact on the market ?

The BM camera comes to market for under 3K with 2.5K resolution and both Raw and industry standard recording options.
Will this camera ultimately affect Red, Canon and Sony sales in their respective markets ?
Even thought the quality, features, frame rates, etc... may not be a patch on the Red Scarlet it's gotta affect sales !

If so; given the current economic climate will a vast number of
people choose price above features and performance (in a certain market segment say 3-10K cameras) and opt for a
S16 camera with Raw and industry standard recording options with interchangeable lens (even though choices are limited)
Simply because it's 3K ?

This may seem obvious but if the answer is yes then the next question is a difficult one;

Is the Digital Cinema market large enough to sustain all these competing cameras ? and will something have to give ?

If the image quality of this new camera turns out to be of a certain quality, and is equal to or surpasses current DSLR's
then I believe it will be a huge hit simply because the price is right, and it has a variety of recording options and lens available.
(Although limited at launch rumors are BM is looking at different mounts and options)

If Blackmagic stays true to form they will produce a Digital Camera that evolves on a yearly basis. They may not provide
or enable all features customers want out of the box, but they will produce an affordable camera day one.
Even though features may be limited the price will be right for those looking at upgrading from DSLR's (or those saving for a Sony or Red )
and these people will probably invest in a lower priced camera to start with and build their equipment or save towards the camera they really want later.
Some may be able to afford both but for the majority it will be either one or the other.

The offshoot must be lower sales of these other cameras (at least until the economy recovers) or those people who wanted to get into Digital Film / Media progress
to a different camera or start to earn money from their investment.

At 3K the Blackmagic Camera is possibly the minimum investment somebody interested in Digital Cinema / Broadcast or Corporate work can expect to spend,
Add another 1K (min) 2K (realistic) for a cheap EF Lens, SSD plus accessories.. and their ready to start making their masterpiece and possibly earning some money.

So my question is has the introduction of this camera at this price point and feature set changed the game again ?
And if so; given this (3-10K) market is extremely competitive will it affect sales of Canon, Sony and Red cameras ?

EDIT:
Seeing that Jim and the Red team have done so much to develop a 3-5K (dollar) camera i.e. the 2/3 Scarlet
Is it crazy to think they may resurrect a lower priced version of the Scarlet with an optional Pro Res/ DNxHD Recording option ?
It may make sense if the figures add up and they can get it to market soon !!!!

Nope, nope, cancel this thread . Every thread I have been on that mentions bmd gets scrapped etc. The plain issue is, that while BMD might deliver excellent 2k footage, Scarlet presents better quality above $10k. If the fixed 3k had been here, it might contrast to that, but again, that might have represented another step up. When dragon gets here, there might be another step up. But the camera sales that this might savage more, if done right with setup options to compete in their markets, are poor cheap 4k cameras, and the 2k+ crowd. Between BMD and Scarlet this crowd might find things getting thinner, particularly if the camera gets setup options for Eng broadcast work and prosumer. I know that 2.5k is disappointing, but it is a interesting camera. There are some s35 4k+ sensors out there from small companies, so maybe we will see 4k editions, or 4k 2/3rds/s16. But the new 4k sub $10k Apertus camera project might further squeeze this. If only the $5k scarlet was here with 4k, it might have been the one squeezing this sector.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

As a BMD reseller, and a RED owner/shooter, I think it is safe to say that RDC has nothing to worry about, except for maybe at the very low end where some might not be able to get in. IMHO, the BMD camera takes a direct bead on the DSLR group. They don't have a RAW workflow when it comes to motion with the exception of the Nikon D4 that will output uncompressed video directly out of the HDMI port as long as you don't have any CF cards installed. Hence, you're tethered to another box and you've got an HDMI cable between the camera and your media... The BMD camera is also stuck at standard frame rates, also like DSLRs. And, I would challenge it's ability to output a clean still from motion. However, all that said, I may buy a demo one for my kid and see what he can do with it. (He doesn't get Dad's REDs... not yet, anyway)

My cousin's girl is the only other one in the visual industry, and she now has a 5D mk2 around Christmas. I would feel a little foolish if I told her a 5mp BMD is a DSLR competitor. If only they had used a chip with good MP ability and at least 4/3rds size for stills, they could do it.

I can name a few things I would like to see, replacable battery (I wonder if the one in the unit is a flat non standard battery). At least 50fps 2.5k. Cineform raw. . Even I was offered a license years ago, it is cheap enough, and now they are pushing it as a standard, and they were doing fpga development, so with fpga advancement over the last 8 years, it should be cheaper now. If they included an respectable NLE compatible with cineform raw (even a free one) that would round things off nicely. Higher resolution motion and stills is also desirable, as with more audio. But people have to realise, it includes non of these at the moment.

Forgot: rig/features options for different filming sectors, such as Eng, mentioned before, and water proof all weather housing/sealing.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Many will transcode to Cineform RAW at speeds faster than you could have copied off the DNG's from to SSD to a normal hard drive. 5:1 easy savings in storage!

I don't get to say this to you often around here Les, but good one!

BM Cinema is an entry level camera. Less than what I was hoping for in the Scarlet Fixed, but more in other areas.

Thumbs up!

Its a bit too late in the day for that, RED choose to stay away from the 3K arena, they have made it clear that it is 4K or higher.
It took a non traditional camera manufacturer like RED to make a RED camera and now BMD has come up with a 3K in camera Raw based camera.
I bet in a few months or a year a company like GO Pro will come out with a 2K -3K camera. Why because they have the technology to do 2K/3K/4K
recording via there recent acquisition of Cineform, again they will be a non traditional manufacturer.

The big boys have been sitting on the fence, since the consumer market according to them does not need anything better than HD at moment.

Yusuf Thakur
VFX.Dubai
www.vfxme.com

He, he. Cineform is pushing it's codec as a standard, and wants to into the mass market, good on them. In the meantime, go pro has already started, they have upgraded the hd2 firmware to do 24fps fullhd at 35mb/s. David Newman was doing a interview presentation on it at nab.

 

[PETER ODIO]

Hitler learns about the Blackmagic Cinema Camera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuN9t3hd_yM

 

[Mauro Andreini]

Well......I think it might be a decent camera for underwater filming, less money to risk in the event of a flood (I should know !! It happened to me last year in Malaysia; luckily it was only one of my oldest Canon DV).

I have just received my new Scarlet :thumbsup: and I would NOT go back if I could !! (possibly forward, I already feel the need for the Epic) but I might very well try a BM for my scuba videos.
The size is ideal; just have to work out the controls somehow.
I think that might be a reasonable usage for the new BM kid!



Desperately trying to hide being Italian with little success

 

[peter roehsler]

Many people who will buy the BMD cam will do so, because they are attracted by RAW acquisition BUT: it´s just RAW, no codec. That means tons of data plus endless hours of transcoding. DaVinci had clipping issues with Ikonoskop´s highlights, it remains to be seen how well it will be suited for BMD´s sensor. With ProRes recording it could still be an attractive PS camera for soccer moms, but then: what´s the point?

 

[Yusuf Thakur]

Hitler learns about the Blackmagic Cinema Camera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuN9t3hd_yM

It funny and the end is ironic since this was posted on a 4k camera forum.

Yusuf Thakur
VFX,Dubai
www.vfxme.com

 

[Brian Merlen]

for guys on a budget this camera makes sense, but i already have a dslr and HD is on its way out soon enough...plus the scarlet is upgradable. its hard to justify buying this unless your too broke for a scarlet i feel

 

[Mike P.]

Not that it's really a problem, but according to this the sensor used is an sCMOS and has a global shutter:
http://www.eoshd.com/content/7969/b...sensor-has-global-shutter-made-by-bae-systems

Also the sensor is capable of 100fps at 2.5k and 240fps at 720... That said, there's no word on when, if any of those features/functions will be enabled (or even if they can be given the cameras form factor (heat) and write speeds of SSDs.) Still pretty cool that it's in there though. OH, and BM said explicitly that feature updates will be free and that they're just focused on getting the camera out the door right now (hence the limited function set of the shipping unit.)

If nothing else, it's still kind of interesting.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Many people who will buy the BMD cam will do so, because they are attracted by RAW acquisition BUT: it´s just RAW, no codec. That means tons of data plus endless hours of transcoding. DaVinci had clipping issues with Ikonoskop´s highlights, it remains to be seen how well it will be suited for BMD´s sensor. With ProRes recording it could still be an attractive PS camera for soccer moms, but then: what´s the point?

What is it about this negative hyperbole soccer mom thing, who started this? Very sexist too. Yes, a good near lossless motion image, great attitude, low noise, 8 or 10 bit, might be good for a soccer filming fiend, small clubs even record their own these days (as a professional you can get paid $50k for some sports finales, for soccer I don't know about). Sports trainers can also glean a lot of information from footage to refine stratergy, player behavour and improve movement perfrormance. But the reality is that there are a number of people that would like the quality, apart from the few hard to earn money from, except through over charging their ignorant asses, professionals. So, the say 5%-10% cinema market in the quality camera market, is hardly viable sustained business model without charging a lot.

 

[Elsie N]

The BlackMagic camera is a gateway RAW drug to Scarlet and ultimately, Epic. Just like Epic MX is a gateway drug for Dragon. Some are not addicted, but most of us are.

 

[Bob Gruen]

For a well funded production it could be considered a throw-away camera; a camera that you can pop a photography lens on and put into harm's way. I've been thinking about the possibilities of a Scarlet on a quad-copter, but this would do the job just fine and have less financial downside should the copter fail.

Bob

 

[peter roehsler]

The term `soccer mom camera´ was used first for the then planned fixed lens `pocketable´ SCARLET in this very forum some years back. There has never been any sexiest intention behind it´s use, it rather describes a market segment of shooters of family memories, who will not use complicated workflows. Just like Kodak´s: `you press the button, we do the rest´.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I know where it came from I was around when it first started, but can't remember who started it. I have not heard "soccer dad" or "soccer parent", it implies somebody unlikely to need it seriously, or to be taken seriously as a professional, hence forth "mom". But it is a major dismissive put down to everybody else that could have bought the camera for non cimena work, dismissing or equating them to the level of the revile.

I see the meaning you imply, but how come pick on one group that are very unlikely to buy the camera? I have been circumvent about this, because I know somebody who uses it.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

If a mom (unless very rich) is unlikely to buy a Canon 5D Mk.III to shoot their kids' soccer games, then it's also unlikely they are going to buy a RAW digital cinema camera either, even if in the same price range.

To me, these under-$7000 (let's say) RAW cameras are the equivalent of buying a 16mm Bolex or Beaulieu back in the 1960's, you can call that market "advanced hobbyist" if you want, or "prosumer" today (semi-professional), whatever, but definitely not for your average consumer.

 

[peter roehsler]

I am sorry for my wording, as it was probably disrespectful and politically incorrect.
I thought this was a valid expression - as used below:

QUOTE:
"01-10-2009, 08:02 AM #14
Jannard
RED Digital Cinema
join Date: May 2008
Posts: 273

Sometimes this board misses the point. The 8x Fixed Scarlet has a very simple operating mode if you want that. It is mandatory that it be easy enough for a "soccer mom" to use because we are counting on that sale to make up the volume to be able to sell this unit at such a low price.

If you want to chase that sale away, or be disrespectful to it... no problem. It will just cost you money.

Jim"

 

[Richard Goodwin]

The term seems to imply (as a lot of this discussion implies) that the people using these are not professional or "real" flimmakers. First, you have to start somewhere to build up your work. Second, there are many occasions when you don't need/want a full blown studio setup or high end camera to tell a story or make what you want to make. Third, budget and quality of equipment in and of themselves are not markers of the quality of the work; people have to work within their means.

For reference I have attached some pictures of "soccer mom's" using various non-pro cameras of their days (bolex, etc). I'll leave it to you to identify them and you be the judge if these people are "real" filmmakers/artists or not.

 

[Shane Betts]

I believe the soccer mom epithet was quoting something Sarah Palin said - about herself, if I'm not mistaken. Sexist?

On the BM camera, I think it's been said already. Perfect for someone who sees the advantage of RAW but simply doesn't have the cash for a Scarlet. In most cases I would think that, given a good level of earnings, most people who buy one of these will probably add a Scarlet to the kit at some stage. See Elsie's post Perhaps this is why the mods have allowed this thread to continue and not bumped it on to dvxuser...