Why??

[Mark Thorpe]

Just as I thought I was getting to a clearing in the woods along comes a new Forest to block my way. Why do we now see the development of a 5k camera? Is it really justified to the industry or just an exercise in production "because we can". At a point when I thought we'd seen the clamoring to be the top of the pile I now see people talking about trading in RED's for a part deal on Epic. Prety soon we won't even have time to shoot cameras anymore. It will just become an exercise in how fast we can buy and sell it on so as to get the next one in line.

When will the worlds broadcasters be able to broadcast to an established viewing 2k audience, quite a few years I reckon. Sam,e question for an established 4k viewing audience. Quite a few more years from that I reckon.

I'm happy with my system. It will be the last camera I buy for quite some time. When thats done it will be used as a door stop in my beach front bar. Just hidden by the shadow of that Palm tree that holds up my hammock.

Cheers,
mark.

 

[Steve Phillipps]

Agreed Mark, And especially troubling that it's a new camera rather than an upgrade to the One. I have heard that there may be limitations on upgrading the current hardware. But one of the main reasons for buying a RED ONE was and is that it's highly/over specified for most uses and with the large sensor and open software has the potential to just get better and better. Finally a camera which we can buy without worrying about it being out-dated within a few years and money down the drain.
My main worry is that the development will stop, and also some of the manpower and resources obviously aimed towards Epic that could've continued the development of One.
Scarlett is fine 'cos it's so different - actually good that it doesn't have interchangeable lenses 'cos that'll stop the overflow with One. But RED ONE I thought and hoped was to be a camera that would just grow and grow and an owner would never even have to contemplate another cam. I probably am still in that boat, being in TV rather than cinmea, but again just a shame that resources on One will be diverted towards Epic.
Still a happy shopper on the whole though!
Steve

 

[androbot2084]

The reason for a 5k camera is not so you can duplicate the quality of 35mm but rather that you come closer to the quality of a 70mm film projection. I think some of us are old enough to remember what it was like to see an epic 70mm film production and with all of this emphasis on high definition home theatre people are simply going to demand higher quality when they go to a movie theatre then what they see with their Blu-Ray 1080p.

I just saw a 42 year old remaster of the 65mm movie Grand Prix on HD-DVD and the footage was so clean and bright that you could not see any film grain. My only complaint was that the fast action scenes were not shot at 48 frames per second and if that were the case it would have been like riding in the cockpit.

 

[Ed Blythe]

Epic = 4K image (from 5K chip)
Red One = 3.2K image (from 4K chip)
Scarlet = 2.5K image (from 3K chip)

Discuss.

 

[batutta]

The reason for a 5k camera is not so you can duplicate the quality of 35mm but rather that you come closer to the quality of a 70mm film projection. I think some of us are old enough to remember what it was like to see an epic 70mm film production and with all of this emphasis on high definition home theatre people are simply going to demand higher quality when they go to a movie theatre then what they see with their Blu-Ray 1080p.

I miss the old 70mm days. I think the last new release I saw in 70mm was Titanic at the Mann's Chinese. It looked amazing, way better than the 35mm version. Seeing Lawrence of Arabia and Apocalypse Now in 70mm at the Cinerama Dome were 2 of the greatest movie going experiences of my life. Anyway, 5k will only be good for IMAX until they up the resolution on digital projectors, or start printing 70mm again.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

We won't see the end of this for a while, is my guestimate. Untill someone releases something like a portable (think RED) cam with @ least 16 bit recording (24 bit internal processing) @ or arround 8k (which is 4 times 4k..)

Do I need that, not really, but that will give a much bigger dynamic range and enough oversmpling to put discussions to death. What is happening is an exact analogy of how the audio world developed a while back.

 

[Matthew Greene]

The industry always has had higher quality mastering technology than what the delivery method allows. This is not a new concept. I personally (considering known and available viewing technologies) don't have a future need in sight for post processed masters with more than 10bits, 2K and 6 stops of dynamic range to be honest but I do want my masters to be of higher integrity so I have freedom during post.

 

[Peter Majtan]

I've said this in another thread:

Neither Epic, nor Scarlet is here to replace Red One. Jim and other RED-TEAM members have clearly pointed out that Red One will continue to be improved, upgraded and supported for some time to come... Each camera represents different market:

EPIC: 5K CMOS for crisp 4K RGB delivery with S35mm sensor and interchangeable lenses - to battle 65mm and high-end 35mm film productions...

Red One: 4K CMOS for crisp 2K/HD RGB delivery with S35mm sensor and interchangeable lenses (that could be delivered as "soft" 4K) - to battle average 35mm film productions...

Scarlet: 3K CMOS for crisp 2K/HD RGB delivery with 2/3" sensor and fixed lens - to battle low-cost 35mm, HD and S16mm independent film (and video) productions...

Three very different markets...

Now I bet You RED is already thinking about the next step - another camera - why?

The point being is that RED can't fall asleep on roses (or Scarlets :blush: ). The industry WILL respond and (as You know) it takes time from idea to real product in hand. I'll bet anything that RED is already playing around ideas for next cameras.

Average R&D process:

IDEA --> Research & Proof of Concept --> Development of Prototype --> Tuning and Advanced Engineering --> Release Product --> Updates & Tweaks

Red One is now in the last stage of "Updates & Tweaks"
Scarlet & EPIC are somewhere between "Development of Prototype" and "Tuning and Advanced Engineering" stage...
So for sure someone at RED has to be playing around with the "IDEA" and "Research & Proof of Concept"

But then again - what do I know... :whistling:

 

[Jarred Land]

Well said Peter.....

 

[Jeff Coatney]

If you feel that way about the 5K, you're gonna be devastated when they announce the 8K projector! RED develops great products. If they only had one great camera in development, they wouldn't last long. They're sending the message to all potential competitors out there that they're going to be burning the midnight oil for quite awhile. If you want to compete with RED in development, you better bring your lunch and call your wife to tell her you'll be working late for the next five years. NAB 2008 was notice that there are products in the pipeline that nobody knows about and they're all potential game changers. No "Corporate", "expense account" executive is gonna have the fire in their belly to go toe to toe with Jim when the Risk Yardstick come out. Yeeehaw! Let the games begin!

 

[Mark Thorpe]

All good and valid points. Thanks for a good discussion. I was in no way being negative with regards to RED's policy. I've been on board from day one, almost fell off once, and still believe that RED have allowed me to progress with the right tools for my chosen path. Even at this level I was just a bit stumped to see an ever accelerating product range from the company.

All good stuff and again, thanks.
Mark.

 

[Alberto Caprioglio]

I think Red One is very good for 4k delivery. It will not be as sharp as starting with 5k, but never mind. You can sharpen it a little in post (or add contrast) if you really want - if you really see the difference - and it will look fantastic. It's still so much better than 2k and 3k.
It's an excellent tool to make "almost 4k" movies.
Yes, Epic will probably be the absolute best, for bigger budgets.

 

[combatentropy]

S35 @ 5K allows S16 @ 2.5K

S16 @ 2.5K is just what ENG shooters want (bear with me):

- S16, b/c S35 is too shallow DOF and too much glass for running and gunning
- 2.5K, b/c debayered it is exactly what you need for 1920 x 1080, which is the broadcast standard.

So you have S16 @ 2.5K for weddings, news, and other ENG stuff to help pay the bills,
S35 @ 5K for when you want to shoot that feature film,
And even a 14 MP still camera

Sounds like the perfect all-around format for independent filmmakers. Too bad it's not yet at this independent filmmaker's budget.

Anyway, if Red can just make sure they wrap that 5K bad boy in a nice, usable, ergonomic package (at least 2 XLRs, pots for audio, 2 CF card slots, a decent, shoulderable size when fully configured, etc.), then they'll almost have the perfect cam (perfect would be with a global-reset shutter)

 

[Raul Gonzo]

Now I bet You RED is already thinking about the next step - another camera - why?

I did not expect I see a camera like the Red One for several more years. Now with 5k and then?
I read the human eye streams an image at about 500 megapixels. I wouldn,t be surprised if RED was the first ones closest to that...
... the RED EYE camera? (sweet name, yes?)

 

[Alberto Caprioglio]

I read the human eye streams an image at about 500 megapixels.

Mmm, very interesting, but my glasses are underpowered. With them, I can't see exactly 10/10, I suppose it's more like 9.5/10 or less ... for the simple reason that I don't want my eyes to get more and more lazy.
(Someone may do the maths, but not me, I am not good at that, either, to know what this means, megapixels wise)

I think this is a much greater problem then a movie being less than 500 megapixels.
And less then perfect correction is not uncommon at all.

Just any less then perfect sight condition may easily lead to not be able to tell 500000000 pixels from 5000000...
or perhaps 5000000.. or was it 50000000? I can't count them, I can't see them.
If I'm tired, I can't see as well as when I'm in good shape. I don't think I will ever see any difference above ten or maybe twenty megapixels at a cinema screen. I would need to jump from my seat, go to pause the projector and then inspect the pixels on the screen very closely, to check if the image is less then 500 million pixels, not fulfilling me at molecular level.
Someone sees 12/10, but most people are not eagles. With or without glasses, very often people see less then 10/10.

 

[Visceral_IvaN]

Just as I thought I was getting to a clearing in the woods along comes a new Forest to block my way. Why do we now see the development of a 5k camera? Is it really justified to the industry or just an exercise in production "because we can". At a point when I thought we'd seen the clamoring to be the top of the pile I now see people talking about trading in RED's for a part deal on Epic. Prety soon we won't even have time to shoot cameras anymore. It will just become an exercise in how fast we can buy and sell it on so as to get the next one in line.

When will the worlds broadcasters be able to broadcast to an established viewing 2k audience, quite a few years I reckon. Sam,e question for an established 4k viewing audience. Quite a few more years from that I reckon.

I'm happy with my system. It will be the last camera I buy for quite some time. When thats done it will be used as a door stop in my beach front bar. Just hidden by the shadow of that Palm tree that holds up my hammock.

Cheers,
mark.

Broadcasters will probably never go to 2k. It is simply to close to HD. The next step in the evolution is 4k. I already saw some 4k TVs on display here in Tokyo.

4K projectors are starting to slowly roll out.

Whether we like it or not, 4k is the next step in broadcasting.

then... 6k. 8k. Of course. NHK already has a prototype 8k camera, and a prototype 8k broadcast system. Sure it is still in the pre-alpha stages, but forward thinking compaies have to keep improving, expanding.

Kudos to Red for doing that and seeing that they cannot afford to slow their momentum.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

RED EYE

Red creates a substitute for seeing.

 

[Peter Majtan]

I did not expect I see a camera like the Red One for several more years. Now with 5k and then?
I read the human eye streams an image at about 500 megapixels. I wouldn,t be surprised if RED was the first ones closest to that...
... the RED EYE camera? (sweet name, yes?)

I am not sure how that number came to be, but the reality is somewhat different. Myself (ex-army pilot) I have a great eyes and when sitting at viewing distance from 4K projection I can't tell individual pixels. Hell I can't tell the individual pixels from HD SXRD projector from normal viewing distance. Sure the technology can go higher and higher and higher... But at what point it ends up being useless? It's like having a car that can do 200+ MPH, but You can't exceed 90 on any road...

There will be applications for extreme high resolution technologies, but they will be for special purposes (army, medical, virtual galleries, etc...), never a broadcast standard. Just like when You take that 200+ MPH car to a special circuit and floor the pedal, but 99.9% of the folks will stay on roads limited to 90...

I think the next step is not to go higher (then 4K) resolution, but better dynamic range and maybe higher frame rate (true 48 FPS for cinema). Now thats a money well spent...

:whistling:

 

[Häakon]

Epic = 4K image (from 5K chip)
Red One = 3.2K image (from 4K chip)
Scarlet = 2.5K image (from 3K chip)

Discuss.

Agreed, and let's not forget one of the best virtues of the RED ONE: oversampling is king.

By the time the 4K monitors are available, you'll be thankful for those 5K+ cameras. Obviously that's all in due time, but one can't deny it's coming.

As for the original post, don't forget that RED has offered an upgrade path for your RED ONE by allowing you to upgrade to a 4K Mysterium "X" sensor when that's available. Seems to me your investment is just fine.

 

[Bing Bailey]

you might see 4k projectors and displays ,but you won't see broadcasters going to 4k , they simply have no reason to. they are already saying HD is too expensive and that took almost 20 years to get where it is now. they are already using filters to make the on air talent look better and the average size tv would get no benefit at all from being in 4k. its only when you go up to sizes like 100" and higher that you'd really notice it that much