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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Why you may want to hold on to your Scarlet (and pass on the upgrades altogether).

Scarlet to epic dragon comes with a 1 year warranty, As does any new camera from RED. The only way the "trade in" can feel like a loss if you don't make money from your camera from the beginning. My scarlet paid for itself, assesories, epic trade in. And my epic paid for dragon, dragon red armor, lights, steadicam, and my truck. You gotta spend money to make money. Plain and simple, times might be getting tough cause of dragon delays, I get asked about dragon everyday. But there's a light at the end of the tunnel. Just gotta start walking towards it.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Sorry stevie - it's a lot of blah blah blah blah. I am sure you are a media mogul beyond compare. LOL Do what you think is going to work for you. Make all the assumptions you want and act on them several months in advance. Right ow, I am keeping my Scarlet. (Gee, we agree there.) I'll very probably upgrade to Epic in Q1/14. After that, we'll see. I may end up doing exactly what you end up doing - but I am not making that decision now.

And, not incidentally, I am not going to get in a pissing war with RED about their policies since I respect their challenges and believe they do they best they can for their customers. Of course, in your case, I wouldn't count on any special treatment going forward. :laugh:
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RED is a company, a business- like Exxon or Levi's, or pfizer... it's there to make a great product and make as much money as they can... it's just funny to me, that you can't be critical of their policies, even when they make no sense. RED promised Scarlet owners an upgradeable camera... which is now actually them giving you your Scarlet for 5K minus the value of a year or two of warranty. Maybe they're giving you back 3k for your scarlet. The same camera they sell for 9K. That's not an upgrade program, that's a buy back program. And a lame one at that... if you want to sit in bed and stroke your RED and be too afraid to stand up for yourself- that's your prerogative. RED will give me the same treatment they give you. even after your 4000 posts-- it's a business-- not a cool group of friends trying to save the film community from the evil corporate guys at Sony and ARRI. It's just a company, like any other. And, no certainly not a media mogul- but with a 100k plus gear from RED, I certainly have every right to express my disappointment in the $3,000 Scarlet buyback program.
 
One important point - RED is not a business quite like Exxon or Levi's or Pfizer. Those are all public companies with a stated responsibility - like it or not - to return maximum value to the shareholders. The major shareholders of RED, AFAIK, walk in the door at RED Studios on a regular basis and can afford to run their business the way they want, optimizing its value for the long term; no quarterly analyst calls to appease the unhappy milieu. Big difference.
 
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BTW - I haven't bothered to deal with your specifics because they seem to spring from all sorts of assumptions that make even less sense but...

The current price in the RED store for Epic-X body is $17,500.
The current price for an Epic-M Dragon is $29,000. (The only one you can order besides the $50K Carbon.)

If I trade my Scarlet now for an Epic (which I could have in my hands in short order), it will cost me $9500. I'll help you with the math: the delta between Epic-X and Scarlet is therefore $8K - essentially the value they are placing on my camera right now. And, if I am not mistaken, that Epic-X is a brand new sensor and body.

Like you, I seem to recall that eventually, Epic Dragons will be $24K. How long before that happens? Who knows? How many months will I have been using my Epic? Several, most likely. And, when I can schedule the upgrade to Dragon from Epic - if I so choose - I can do so for another $9500... or not. If it seems like a better deal to keep my Epic and buy Dragon outright. I can. But do I expect, at that point, to be able to buy Dragon for less than $24K? Doubtful. And, even if so, is the market value of my Epic going to be any more than the delta at that point?

Waiting is always a good strategy in digital hardware. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. Why not wait another few years until you can get Dragon for $10K and still have your Scarlet. Of course, your iPhone 9s may shoot higher quality images than your Scarlet by then and the new Tyrannosaurus RED will blow Dragon away but, hey - you saved $5K. :smiley:
 
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I have had an Epic since Sept... I don't miss my Scarlet. Luckily I got JJ to sign a piece of the Scarlet that I kept... So I will always have a piece of the Scarlet to remind me how awesome my Red is, compared to my starter Red... Anyway I like that I can go from Scarlet to Epic to Dragon, its a hell of a lot easier to stomach when I can extend my purchase over two years, and if I pay a premium for that, so be it. I am not going to sit here and quibble about well I bought in pre price drop on my Scarlet, paid the higher transfer of ownership fee, but got hooked up for 9,500 twice in a row after and do all that math...To hell with it, I got in when I did, we all did, screw it I love the images, I love the day rates, and its fun working on Red sets 200 plus days a year...

So forget about what the cameras cost, doesn't matter, at the end of the day you sell your services whether you own a camera at all. I know plenty of non owner ops, its a perfectly viable business move to make. So enjoy your math problems, PS your using nominal figures, you forgot to adjust for inflation, so therefore you need to redo all of it to even have a grasp of actual purchasing power... And if you think Red is a bad deal go for Arri, or Sony or nothing and rent. But personally I like the trade in programs. You go drive a car for a year and try to trade it in for almost full value. The price I got on my trade towards Epic is more then fair, look at what Epic once cost (nominally or real figures)
 
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Terry VerHaar said:
Of course, your iPhone 9s may shoot higher quality images than your Scarlet by then and the new Tyrannosaurus RED will blow Dragon away but, hey - you saved $5K. :smiley:
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I just spat out my drink at this comment hahaha much better than my proposed next move of "REDelicious"
 
Bottom line: it's all about what kind of money you can make with the camera. Forget the branding and even the pricing for a moment.

The question is not what is the right choice but what makes sense for YOUR clients. Will one or the other features of Dragon enable you to make back more than the upgrade price, or will you upgrade out of desire and find yourself unable to charge more? Is it even possible to answer that question? And is your cameras rate higher or more important than your own as a human and as a DP!??

Again: it's all about what kind of money you'll make and how.
Are your jobs more likely to pay more for two excellent 4k cameras than one outstanding 6k camera with more lifelike color, range and sensitivity? Will your producers be swayed by a "new" Red with those nicer features? Is the quality of your work important enough to your bottom line that the highlight detail, skin tone and sensitivity of the new sensor will enable you to do "some next level shit man" and so raise yourself to a different market? Or are you buying an upgrade the way people upgrade their phones, because you want something new...

What kind of money you make depends on your clientele your attitude and sometimes rarely possibly even your talent. Sadly your eye and your operating are likely to come in second place behind your "self-marketing." In today's business having something "new" and different allows you to command a certain price. The question is whether Red's marketing and offerings work for your market, whether what they're selling now never or next year is what you need.

I feel like there is a very wise choice somewhere in the tangle unique to each of us, and this thread suggests that there is only one wise choice for everyone.
 
My scarlet never gave me any trouble and has been rock solid. I bought it for the original 2011 price, now after being able to use it (and earn money with it) for nearly two years RED is offering a trade in for a new EPIC X and I will nearly get the full amount of my scarlet investment back. I have NEVER EVER seen that from any company I have been dealing with since 25+years. I don´t like to sound like a fanboy, but I simply have to say: Thank you for this upgrade program, RED.
You must be joking, you might better spend your time shooting something.

Cheers, Ulf
 
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There is a bit of truth to what Stevie D is saying. However, I like choices, and I like the upgrade program. RED is out to make money, as any good company is. They deliver a great product for a price I can afford. Just as I try to do with clients. There is nothing wrong with that.

As for the upgrade path, you can turn in your Scarlet now for an Epic. If you have a steady stream of clients they may appreciate the added capabilities of the Epic, and it may well be worth the investment. The same thing for the Epic to Dragon. In a sense it is a buyback program for the Scarlet. I am fine with that. I am selling the body of my Scarlet for $8,000. If it was not for shipping and handling and taxes, I would be MAKING $50! I cannot think of a much better deal on a used camera.

My personal prediction is that there will be no more Scarlet line. I think RED wants to get out of all but the high end camera industry. RED will buy back the Scarlets that are traded in, upgrade them, and sell them as Battle Tested Scarlet Dragons and release them when a competitor tries and out price RED. (Much as they did for the Battle Tested RED ONE.)

I am personally going to wait for the Scarlet Dragon upgrade, because that is all I can afford, and all I really need. I am a hobbyist (sorta). I am sure Battle Tested Scarlet Dragons are going to be selling around $12,000 or less at some point. So be it. I have made my money back with my Scarlet already, without trying to terribly hard. Time is Money. If I sat around and waited (or gave in and purchased the AF100) I do not think I would have been in the same position I am in now.

The company I work for (my main income) has a quarterly budget. The upgrade program will allow us to purchase an Epic Dragon over time, which they would not allow an all in one. Going from a Scarlet to Epic to Dragon each quarter, plus a couple accessories.

I like that we have a choice to go which ever route fits you best. If you want to purchase a new camera and keep your old. So be it. If you want to upgrade so be it. RED give you those options. They will make money doing it, and good on them!
 
Bob Gundu said:
You forgot an important factor Stevie... that the value is in using your gear. Sure you can wait all you want for prices to fall, but during that time, you can be making money and even pay off the initial investment. It's hard to put a dollar value on experience.
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Yep. I took the Scarlet -> Epic upgrade path. And I've made about $6,000 in dragon specific rentals in the last 6 months. If they start shipping Dragon upgrades in April/May then I'll be going from Scarlet -> Epic Dragon for the price of going from Scarlet -> Scarlet Dragon. Obviously everyone's situation is different but it's pretty easy to make the business case.

Also I don't believe prices will drop as fast as you think they will. Like you say, upgrade prices won't drop. I doubt Epic-Dragon prices will drop substantially for a couple years. 2 years is a long time to make up the difference in putting the camera to work.
 
I'm more or less bloody impressed how well the Mysterium-X bodies hold up against some of the newer cameras on the market. Unless somebody really produces something crazy I'm not seeing any major price cuts in the next 6 months.

And remember all of these can be used to capture and finish a 4K cinema release.
 
On any of these complex conspiracy theories . . . it assumes that there is organization and strategic planning at HQ. Watching RED for the last couple years leads me to believe that their management style is one of loosely organized chaos which would prevent any fine tuned plan like the one you suggest in the OP.

RED is great at Branding, Hype and designing cool tech. The timely delivery of product is never something they professed to be good at. In fact they seem to pride themselves on missing target dates. Mystery solved.
 
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