Why is STORY so hard for me ... how do you deal with it?

[PatrickFaith]

I find the hardest thing i do is work on the story. I know Houdini/nukex/studio/motionbuilder/protools/RED ... all sorts of things that people "think" are hard, but getting a few lines together to create a compelling story is by far the hardest thing I do.

I'm pretty sure a lot of other people think the same way, I've read about 400 books on story/scripts/etc. Even guys I really look upto I find struggle with story, one film the story is awesome followed by another film were the story just doesn't come together: Isao Takahata, Akira Kurosawa, Ridley Scott, Martin Scorsese, James Cameron,Steven Soderbergh. These guys are my heroes, so if they have problems with story, it's totally intimidating for me to work on story.

I have some great collaborators, but I don't think I work with them very effectively. For a indie film like what I'm doing, I need to NAIL the story for it to go into distribution, which I think adds even a bit more stress (which i'm not sure is good or bad). Any hints on how you guys approach story | work on story development | emotionally just deal with "story" | will be very appreciated.

 

[Lakis Amarantithis]

Stories are my story

Stories are my story

Story is the easiest thing for me! I have a ton to say and endless to write and do write all the time!
Perhaps we can help each other? I show you how to write, and direct and you teach me Houdini and some advanced protools?

 

[Elsie N]

I find the hardest thing i do is work on the story. I know Houdini/nukex/studio/motionbuilder/protools/RED ... all sorts of things that people "think" are hard, but getting a few lines together to create a compelling story is by far the hardest thing I do.

I'm pretty sure a lot of other people think the same way, I've read about 400 books on story/scripts/etc. Even guys I really look upto I find struggle with story, one film the story is awesome followed by another film were the story just doesn't come together: Isao Takahata, Akira Kurosawa, Ridley Scott, Martin Scorsese, James Cameron,Steven Soderbergh. These guys are my heroes, so if they have problems with story, it's totally intimidating for me to work on story.

I have some great collaborators, but I don't think I work with them very effectively. For a indie film like what I'm doing, I need to NAIL the story for it to go into distribution, which I think adds even a bit more stress (which i'm not sure is good or bad). Any hints on how you guys approach story | work on story development | emotionally just deal with "story" | will be very appreciated.

Patrick, I feel your distress... sorta. I actually have no problem with story itself. That is, I can concoct a story at the drop of a hat. My problem is the fleshing out of the story or follow-through.

I think being acquainted with all the aspects of a movie is my problem because so many times I will leave one aspect of the process... like story for instance, and switch to another.

I know this isn't very much help as I've offered no solution, just a "you are not alone" commiseration.

But maybe I and you could benefit from delegating some parts of the movie-making process to others while we concentrate on story?

But then again, that doesn't mean a story will resonate. I think that comes from matching story to audience... or hitting that Universal Story sweetspot that speaks to everyone.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

Let writers write and you do you.

 

[Michael Winokur]

Patrick - I just watched the clip of you talking about applied math at Visa. Pretty interesting stuff.

-Michael

 

[Chris Henze]

For me, storytelling is the center and the most important. The degree in which we get this right is how successful our pieces are. The only other crucial item is finishing. Everything else only has the potential to get in the way and hopefully our skills allow the story to shine despite the problems. There are so many false ego pitfalls to creating compelling content which makes it hard to do. When I struggle, I listen to the story and it tells me what is best.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

My wife and I just saw Tomorrowland, for which I had high hopes. I *LOVE* Pixar movies. And I've met many of the people who have worked with Brad Bird and heap praise on him for everything he does to make story the core of their productions. Thus I was disappointed that when it came to story, Tomorrowland was a failure. And not by a little bit.

For me, stories are all about promises made and promises kept. The Princess Bride is a great example of a set of promises made by the Grandfather and then delivered brilliantly and concretely by the text of the fairytale. Lady In The Water, which gets all meta about Story, is a great example of muddled promises delivered somewhat arbitrarily.

With your mathematical background, I would say that stories are like proofs. They should have a bold, compelling hypothesis. Each step thereafter should be necessary, interesting, and perhaps a little surprising. But never arbitrary. The payoff at the end should be the expected result, not something entirely unrelated. And the result should be so satisfying, not only in and of itself, but because of the beauty and surprise of the derivation, that we are inclined to tell others "you have to see this!"

 

[Tony M]

Story is hard, because Story is King.
Story is hard for everyone. For Steven King, For Tarantino, For everyone.

Some people just do it better: either by perseverance, or by being "gifted".
Everyone can tell a story. Not everyone can tell an interesting one. A captivating one. A jaw-dropping one. To grip the Audience (the Queen), and bring them to their knees and tears, asking for more.

I believe for you, one of the problems you might have is that you might "know" too much, and do too much.
It will be hard for the creative part, imaginative part of your brain to kick in. Not the creative vfx part... But the La-la-land part of your brain (the one most people go to when they smoke for example).

Have you tried to do nothing for two weeks, but just write? No matter how Nuke and its nodes call out to you...just forget about it, and stare at that piece of paper and write.
Even if it is an imitation of the Little Red Riding Hood, it is a start.

One of the panaceas for most aspiring writers is to create a "cocoon"... Isolation. Not necessarily an island, but isolate yourself, so that you get bored, and that spider on your ceiling begins to.."talk"....whether to you or to...other spiders...

 

[Saied_M]

I read somewhere that one half of the brain has dominance, making a person either artistic or technical in nature. You strike me as being technically very adept, and trying to deconstruct story with a technical mindset (as opposed to those people who seem to just be able to spin a yarn at will). I suspect there is crossover though eg the great cinematographers seem to be artists as well as technical with the gear. If it's any consolation, I tried to look at Houdini and ran off - your skills are most impressive.

 

[Elsie N]

Personal note... I had one of my stories (in Play form) looked at by a professional script reader. She apparently used a points system as though she were doing a studio insider evaluation. Spent way too much time referring to the fact is was still in Play format rather than script. This did me no service as I was interested in story and character development.

Received decent affirmations on that but when it came to offering ways to improve in those departments, she offered suggestions that were already addressed in the piece. I wondered aloud if she actually read the story.

Did I get my money's worth? I didn't think so, especially since I told her I would be shooting the script myself which she should have taken to mean I did not need the superfluous data. I specifically told her I was curious to know if I resolved conflict too neatly, and that was not mentioned at all.

I surmised she had too much business and scanned each customer's work and commented according to some sort of formula.

The purpose of my comments are to suggest that if you can find a conscientious professional script reader who will listen to what your concerns are and will touch on those while still giving an overall opinion of weaknesses and strengths... you may just find the way to make a script better.

 

[Tony M]

To get to the core of your problem, one easy fix for you could be "GENRE".

What is the Genre of your story or film you are trying to write? If you can say it is for e.g Historical Fiction, Love Drama, Film Noir, Crime, e.t.c Then it is a start.

Once you do that, find films that fit that genre. Every one. Good and Bad. Watch it. If you don't have time, pick 3 of the best and 1 bad one, and take it apart. Scene by scene, character by character.
Who is who? What happened to who? What you liked about it? What you can change?

Then just "COPY" it.
Copy your film into it. And see if it works. You can even arrive at the same ending, or even arrive at a much better ending, or even find your story is better.

Genre is like a mathematical set. (i sucked at high school math), . Genre is the Law and Order of your story. Don't break the Law. (easy, right?) Except you are Kurosawa, Or Mizoguchi. Then you will be forgiven.

 

[Saied_M]

Sorry to post again, but I wanted to share that I once experienced a strong natural urge to write stories. The interesting thing is that it coincided with suddenly breaking my daily Groundhog Day routine and being abroad for an extended period, being caught off guard and receptive to different experiences. When I returned to the UK, it slowly dissipated again. Shoulda taken a laptop, oh well.

 

[Tony M]

One other thing... Do you read novels?

Great novels are the epitome are imagination. So much so that film doesn't even have the technology yet to bring them to life. Sometimes, they don't even have the great actors to pull off the great actors in them.

So, novels do help. Cos most writers started from there (hence the supposed "gift").. before they started reproducing what they read. And stealing from what they read.

Me? I haven't finished a novel in a long time. But the ones i have read still do help me "imagine" a story.

Yes, the brain is that powerful, that you will steal someone's character or story, and you won't know, and pat yourself on the back on your creativity. But that is the way it works.

Just like in science, "Standing on the shoulders of giants"
In arts and writing, "Don't get caught stealing"

 

[Zack Birlew]

You can't be intimidated by the possibility of failure and the fact that your screenwriting idols have failed as well. If you have a good idea, write it, take a break, read it again, fix it up, and go from there. If a script is good right off the bat then it was a really good story that you were passionate about but if it's not a blooming flower then it's just going to take more time to make it bloom that's all. Studio films can sometimes be rushed and fall with even the best of talent trying to support it. As was mentioned, "Tomorrowland" is a great example. Lots of incredible talent involved, a major studio behind it, but if the story is no good then the whole thing crumbles like a soufflé. That's another thing, do you really think all of your ideas are good? You shouldn't because most won't be or they'll be so small that you can't make anything out of them. You could always collect ideas and combine one or more of them down the line and come up with something that way. Then again, whole movies have been made on just the idea of a poster for the film so it depends. If you have an idea, try writing something out of it and don't feel bad if you only get a few pages of dialogue and nothing more, at least it's a start.

 

[PatrickFaith]

THANKS, Lot of great comments, i need to ponder these, but i'd like to get a quick response back just so you guys now i'm working on trying to get what your saying.

Story is the easiest thing for me! I have a ton to say and endless to write and do write all the time!
Perhaps we can help each other? I show you how to write, and direct and you teach me Houdini and some advanced protools?

Hey, well here's how I learned Houdini (which is the most recent program I've learned), just going over this is helping me to figure out how "get story":
1) I audit some classes/people not to learn the program, but more on how these people have mastered it approach using the tools.
I did this with FXPHD.COM with Michael Winokur "Creating Dynamic Destruction FX in Houdini, Maya, & Nuke" & Ludovic Iochem's "Tornado Destruction Project, Part 1"
2) I then take some basic nut and bolt classes on lynda.com & digitaltutors.com .
http://www.lynda.com/Houdini-tutori...ni page:1 s:relevance sa:true producttypeid:2
http://www.digitaltutors.com/software/Houdini-tutorials-all
3) I then actually try to do something I need, this is usually a pure impalement for first couple of times, as I normally mis apply the tool, but in this step i finally "get it". For this I
am using CMIFX.COM and also go back and look at my FXPHD.COM classes, now that I have a clue.

I btw probably do about 10 classes every 3 months, and have been doing this for decades.

...

I think being acquainted with all the aspects of a movie is my problem because so many times I will leave one aspect of the process... like story for instance, and switch to another...

But then again, that doesn't mean a story will resonate. I think that comes from matching story to audience... or hitting that Universal Story sweetspot that speaks to everyone.

EXACTLY, it's getting all the aspects lined up, then me getting bogged down somewhere, thinking the story makes sense, then realizing it doesn't resonate. There's also so many pieces of a film that it's easy to get lost in the tree's, but the root's of the story are in those trees.

Let writers write and you do you.

I wish that worked for me, but it just doesn't work with my personality, I know it works for other people though.

I kind of copy three different processes: Disney Process, the Chaplan Process, the Jerry Lewis Process. All three of these guys had a fairly unique way of approaching film making. I don't think their process is taught now a days much. For example, like Disney, I like to get all the music done first. Another process I follow is what was done at the Ghibli studio's.

Patrick - I just watched the clip of you talking about applied math at Visa. Pretty interesting stuff.

-Michael

Thanks Michael, Richard Martin did that piece, I find how Richard put's things together amazing. I btw retired as the distinguished engineer at Visa, how art people fit in corporate culture's i think is very interesting also(it's really tricky).

... The only other crucial item is finishing. Everything else only has the potential to get in the way and hopefully our skills allow the story to shine despite the problems. There are so many false ego pitfalls to creating compelling content which makes it hard to do. When I struggle, I listen to the story and it tells me what is best.

Great advice, one thing i'm doing is separating what I call production and post production to what other people will do. For example, I do the temp music mixes, but nor realize the final mix and dub stage work really needs to be done by another person. Trying to figure out where this split works both financially and what is best for the story is a major balancing act(i.e. often it would be better bringing in others way sooner in the process, but i'm doing a multiyear production, and that financially just doesn't work). I think just talking with the major studio's has helped me understand the split, and also the quality i need to have in order to hand things over without having a mess. On the ego pitfalls, that's a tough one, in that at one level i'm struggling to have a story make sense enough for when someone does look at it their criticism helps me track(so i don't show it till it's solid), and on the other extreme the story is so far down a wrong path that it's hard for someone to comment on it in a useful way.

My wife and I just saw Tomorrowland ...
With your mathematical background, I would say that stories are like proofs. They should have a bold, compelling hypothesis. Each step thereafter should be necessary, interesting, and perhaps a little surprising. But never arbitrary. The payoff at the end should be the expected result, not something entirely unrelated. And the result should be so satisfying, not only in and of itself, but because of the beauty and surprise of the derivation, that we are inclined to tell others "you have to see this!"

I had the same reaction to Tomorrowland, at one level i really like it, but the story just kind of went poof instead of proof. I really like this compelling hypothesis concept, and i think i have a problem in draging in stuff that may appear arbitrary (i.e. it may seem critical to me, but it feels to other people like it's coming in from left field).

...
One of the panaceas for most aspiring writers is to create a "cocoon"... Isolation. Not necessarily an island, but isolate yourself, so that you get bored, and that spider on your ceiling begins to.."talk"....whether to you or to...other spiders...

I recently read an autobiography by a composer i like, Philip Glass. On the ceiling example, one things i do is stair into a pitch black ceiling and just wait for the light show to start.

I read somewhere that one half of the brain has dominance, making a person either artistic or technical in nature. You strike me as being technically very adept, and trying to deconstruct story with a technical mindset (as opposed to those people who seem to just be able to spin a yarn at will)...

I think this is exactly the problem with feature films, in that it is a cross over between a bunch of parts of our brains - and it's real hard to get that balance right. I BTW am crappy at houdini, but it's in my toolset now when i need it.

...
Did I get my money's worth? I didn't think so, especially since I told her I would be shooting the script myself which she should have taken to mean I did not need the superfluous data. I specifically told her I was curious to know if I resolved conflict too neatly, and that was not mentioned at all...

I went kind of through a screenwriting phase a decade ago, I btw found that massively depressing. I still get junk mail from sites trying to "help" me with my script. I kind of emotionally avoid those company sponsored forums too with their screen writing classes. I finally decided if i wanted my script produced, i'd have to make the film myself - and that's why i got my scarlet camera. Also by doing the production, i really realized how different making a full film is, from just the script(i was totally naive on that) .

...Genre is the Law and Order of your story. Don't break the Law. (easy, right?) Except you are Kurosawa, Or Mizoguchi. Then you will be forgiven.

I think it's the studio ghibli films that best fit my genre. I've watched those films a ton. I love "grave of the fireflies", but some of the films just totally fail on plot (i.e. "the wind rises"). Interestingly enough there was recently a documentary on ghibli films basically falling apart, that i learned a lot from,"he Kingdom of Dreams and Madness"

... The interesting thing is that it coincided with suddenly breaking my daily Groundhog Day routine and being abroad for an extended period, being caught off guard and receptive to different experiences...

What i do know is always take my mini-ipad with me and sketch out story spines. I also walk 2 hours a day and write down things is i'm walking, which gives me some structure in that even if i don't feel like it I work on the story.

One other thing... Do you read novels?
...

I use to read a ton of novels, i love the foundation series and a lot of the classic scifi's. Now a days i just get bored with stuff, i forced myself to read the game of thrones series, since i love the show ... but was torture turning the pages after the 2nd book. I definitely need something to recharge my reading batteries and stop just reading non-fiction books.

 

[PatrickFaith]

You can't be intimidated by the possibility of failure and the fact that your screenwriting idols have failed as well. If you have a good idea, write it, take a break, read it again, fix it up, and go from there. If a script is good right off the bat then it was a really good story that you were passionate about but if it's not a blooming flower then it's just going to take more time to make it bloom that's all. Studio films can sometimes be rushed and fall with even the best of talent trying to support it. As was mentioned, "Tomorrowland" is a great example. Lots of incredible talent involved, a major studio behind it, but if the story is no good then the whole thing crumbles like a soufflé. That's another thing, do you really think all of your ideas are good? You shouldn't because most won't be or they'll be so small that you can't make anything out of them. You could always collect ideas and combine one or more of them down the line and come up with something that way. Then again, whole movies have been made on just the idea of a poster for the film so it depends. If you have an idea, try writing something out of it and don't feel bad if you only get a few pages of dialogue and nothing more, at least it's a start.

"intimidated by the possibility of failure" ... i think i should write that down and put a big X through it

 

[Lakis Amarantithis]

I do not think there is a way to tell a story or to do a movie. There are endless ways. The problem is finding your way to tell a story with a pen or a camera. I'll be happy to chat on the phone with you, pm me if you care. I have my way of writing stories and screenplays. It looks very much like a different Tarantino with huge respect to the guy. You should not be intimidated by Nothing and nobody. The main thing is to have a story that has juice. No juice no story no movie. Simple.
I'll try by the simplest form and very simple. 1 story a day then 2 then 3 the 10 and in few weeks you'll be there. But like I said first you have to be someone to write a story. Mr Average can never write an exceptional story in my opinion. I'm very opinionated on that.
Thanks for the Houdini advice. I admire a lot Houdini for it's particles at least.

 

[Joe D'Arcy]

Hi Patrick,
One point that made a significant difference in my work as a writer, was understanding that story and script are not the same. For many years I wrote scripts and let the story unfold in the process. Although I made many interesting discoveries, it can be a slow and cumbersome process. It's somewhat like building a house and having the architect come up with new ideas as you go.

I now wait until my story is solid before I write the actual script. There will always be gems that you add in along the way- but a solid story is the core strength of the script. Without a solid story, you only have clever dialogue to carry the script. All the rewrites in the world will rarely create a better story. Rewrites mostly refine dialogue and that is not enough to sustain a movie.

Going back to your post about STORY. I suggest that once an interesting idea or concept for a film emerges then:
* jot down your ideas
* discuss (brainstorm) your ideas with some collaborators allowing EVERY idea some consideration.
* Introduce opposing ideas and collaborate further-continue to allow every idea some consideration.
* Have multiple brainstorm sessions with collaborators and continue to add to the story.
* Refine the story.


* When you love the story and believe the STORY is solid, then write your SCRIPT.

For a writer, the STORY is the foundation and the script is the event.

Joe

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

How do I deal with it? I do it over and over and over. Its still hard, but I can definitively state I've gotten better and I prune the decision tree of good story more efficiently than I ever did, and go down the better paths more often than I ever did.

I look at all the screenwriting tools out there as a ruler -- something you can use to measure and analyse what you've created, to tweak what you've created, to see how it fares or doesn't against models that have worked in the past.

But no tool out there helps you CREATE. And that's the part that's really hard.

All the tools you've mentioned, they all work on material that's already been created. And you are shifting things. Putting things together. All of which is very different than starting from an empty page (starting with an empty frame is similar ofcourse, and equally difficult).

What I found works best is getting to a down-and-dirty first draft. That gives you something to manipulate and tweak. Which leads us to the secret fact that all writing is... rewriting!

 

[Nick Morrison]

Patrick, have you read Stephen King's "On Writing"? It's an amazing resource. Basically, he recommends carving out a stern schedule. He would often write for (say) 4hrs in the morning. Break for lunch. And then read (yes read) for 4hrs. He thought reading was a great resource for the mind.

I'd also recommend reading The Artist Way. A cheesy book to be sure, but filled with many hidden gems. A lot of colleagues and I have found it immensely helpful.

My guess is the technical side comes easy to you. But the storytelling is perhaps more challenging in unexpected ways - say emotionally, personally, etc (as it is for many of us). Writing a "story" can be so personal, so meaningful, so revealing/vulnerable...that we end up being very hard on ourselves (especially if we're technical "perfectionists"). The end result can be paralyzing and daunting.

Totally normal.

The Artists Way was super helpful with this, and she points out a lot of reasons we're so hard on ourselves.

But to summarize, it's helpful to write every day, and be consistent.

It's also helpful to just WRITE. And don't censor yourself. Just get a first draft done, even if it's crap. At least you have a base to work off of.

You can always go BACK and revise LATER. But having that un-interupted "spurt" of non censorship is really important.

It also helps keep the self-critic in check.

Doing some improv comedy sometimes can help too - the "say yes" "don't say no" philosophy is oddly empowering and freeing.

But again, the most important thing is to let go...and write. Go back later and look at what you wrote. Be in the moment...don't think about it too much.

Hope this helps, and doesn't sound too preachy.

I mostly write short-form for a living (promos, etc)...so luckily my format is small enough to not be too painful...but I've always found longer form very tiring.

So I know the feeling. I really do.

Best of luck.

Oh - one more piece of advice. Consider not showing your script to "colleagues" (ie contemporaries). In the Artist Way she advises against this, as friendly co-workers/colleagues are often the most critical (its human nature to judge those like yourself the hardest). Consider showing scripts to folks not in the biz, and that are completely out of your world/circle - I know that's hard to do, but I always found this to be interesting advice!

best