Why is STORY so hard for me ... how do you deal with it?

[Zakaree Sandberg]

story is super easy for me.. I have a book and almost every night I add 1 -2 story ideas..

my big problem is putting it on paper in script form.. I have A.D.D and can not for the life of me sit down to focus on writing a script

 

[PatrickFaith]

I do not think there is a way to tell a story or to do a movie. There are endless ways...Thanks for the Houdini advice. I admire a lot Houdini for it's particles at least.

Thanks Lakis, you are right about the endless ways.
I think I found my problem that I was "stuck" on today, basically I had the wrong song/theme going in the 5th act. I had written a song a long time ago to go in the 2nd act, but then had replaced it. When ripple effects that occurred on that, i didn't update my theme and songs in my 5th act (I btw like to do 7 act structure/spine). I think it's these subtleties in getting the story "right" in a film, it's not so much what is said, but the context of what is said. And that's what makes it so very difficult to find these problems (i.e. someone would have needed to know about my song i wrote 1 year back, and remind me that when I removed it a major thematic element was dropped.)
Give a Yell if you stop by San Francisco.

Hi Patrick,
One point that made a significant difference in my work as a writer, was understanding that story and script are not the same. For many years I wrote scripts and let the story unfold in the process. Although I made many interesting discoveries, it can be a slow and cumbersome process. It's somewhat like building a house and having the architect come up with new ideas as you go.

I now wait until my story is solid before I write the actual script. There will always be gems that you add in along the way- but a solid story is the core strength of the script. Without a solid story, you only have clever dialogue to carry the script. All the rewrites in the world will rarely create a better story. Rewrites mostly refine dialogue and that is not enough to sustain a movie.

Going back to your post about STORY. I suggest that once an interesting idea or concept for a film emerges then:
* jot down your ideas
* discuss (brainstorm) your ideas with some collaborators allowing EVERY idea some consideration.
* Introduce opposing ideas and collaborate further-continue to allow every idea some consideration.
* Have multiple brainstorm sessions with collaborators and continue to add to the story.
* Refine the story.


* When you love the story and believe the STORY is solid, then write your SCRIPT.

For a writer, the STORY is the foundation and the script is the event.

Joe

I read and watched in detail how Woody Allen writes his scripts. He basically talks out the entire film with his collaborator, not writing anything, then when the whole story is together in his brain just cranks it out on a type writer. I think this is kind of a gift that I don't have. Also Woody's sense of timing is worked out in his head, and that timing is placed on paper. I have also noticed how Woody works with his camera/dolly operator, and that sense of timing is even moved to camera movement. I hope to get to this point maybe in my 2nd or 3rd film, at this point I've kind of determined basically what I don't have the skills to do yet, and make sure that's not critical to my first film. I wrote my first book kind of like how you stated it, and collaborated on 3 other books. I don't think though as I moved to feature film I had the sense of "timing" right, so the beats of the story didn't line up. Now that I have redone my beats, i'm needing to go back and do what you say more.

Patrick, have you read Stephen King's "On Writing"? It's an amazing resource. Basically, he recommends carving out a stern schedule. He would often write for (say) 4hrs in the
...
Oh - one more piece of advice. Consider not showing your script to "colleagues" (ie contemporaries). In the Artist Way she advises against this, as friendly co-workers/colleagues are often the most critical (its human nature to judge those like yourself the hardest). Consider showing scripts to folks not in the biz, and that are completely out of your world/circle - I know that's hard to do, but I always found this to be interesting advice!

best

I had read the artist way and found it very revealing. Basically it documented my personal artistic impailment. When in high school I had this super high end guy review how I did things, and he recommended a artistic path. Basically I ignored his advice and listened to all the people that said you can't make money on the artistic path - that's eventually how I ended up doing financial math ( I then got re-centered on doing conceptual art). I don't want to get negative, but I also found I was frequently sharing with people that created artistic "drag". There's a couple of key people that broke me out of this mindset, but it's one of the main reasons why I don't like to review my story idea's with people. Your so right on that book, I should probably re-read it.

story is super easy for me.. I have a book and almost every night I add 1 -2 story ideas..

my big problem is putting it on paper in script form.. I have A.D.D and can not for the life of me sit down to focus on writing a script

I've been involved in around 40 art house type shorts, where I could really let go. I think that helped me finish things, in that most of those projects i had to finish in less then a week, and what is was was it. Having done so many shorts though, I thought I new what i was doing when I started feature film, which turned out not to be the case I think this is what makes creating a good feature film story so rare.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

story is super easy for me.. I have a book and almost every night I add 1 -2 story ideas..

my big problem is putting it on paper in script form.. I have A.D.D and can not for the life of me sit down to focus on writing a script

That's not story, that is concept. Ideas or short descriptions of the whole span of the final story is just a "logline" and most of the time ideas are not even that.
Story is an arc, it's the complex development and change over time for characters that work in conjuncture with the larger events and environment. And all that complexity is boiled down to an overall theme or thesis that you want to tell.

Getting to that story is not something you "just do". You take one of those ideas and you need to develop them for a long time. You only have a story when you have written the first draft and even then you may need rewrites.

Story is the endgame, it's not the beginning. You develop and work to get to that story, so story is far from super easy.

 

[Justin Chin]

Some good thoughts here. I'll add some quickie thoughts.

You're obviously knowable about the process and the craft, but the reality is one must create their own process. Sure you can use other ways as inspiration, but the act of creating something worth viewing (we're talking film here) must have some execution and experience in order to achieve your story goals. With film (unlike a novel) there are many, many factors to how a story is presented on screen. There is absolutely no way the script is the final arbiter of quality. So...

You write
You find creative people to help you on set actors, HoD, etc.
You direct
You listen
You make decisions
You edit
Then you present

Does it work for your audience?

Did it work for you?

What could you do to fix your mistakes?

Can you fix your own mistakes? Do you need to hire someone better?

Always work with people you feel you can learn from, that might be smarter than you, and that you trust.

If you have difficulty working with collaborators, you must figure out why, and figure out how to make something work. If you're doing it all, and that's how you like it, good luck, it's tough. Only a few can do that. Most fail.

All in all, it's a process and you must execute as much as you can. As Pixar people put it, "Fail early". Keep in mind that only works well if you have a great support group and you can work with others, take in the hard criticism, discard what doesn't work and present yet again. But you need that circle and the support.

The best way to figure it out, is to execute from end to end, and the repeat. Kill your babies, keep an eye out for inspiration, but don't let the roadblocks or a wasteland of nothingness destroy you. Keep moving. Create small things, then go bigger, and bigger, until you feel you're at your best.

Most never feel they are at their best.

This isn't meant to discourage, but hopefully there's something here that works for you.

Cheers!

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Read Lajos Egri - Art of dramatic writing and Art of Creative writing

Have something you truly want to tell. Truly believe in. Not the story, something to tell. For example "true love is forgiveness" and then use that in a story/your story.

Lay out the story. Character by character. Act by act. Scene by scene etc

Last collect the discipline and write (this is the hardest for me)

 

[Marc Wielage]

I find the hardest thing i do is work on the story. I know Houdini/nukex/studio/motionbuilder/protools/RED ... all sorts of things that people "think" are hard, but getting a few lines together to create a compelling story is by far the hardest thing I do.

I believe you're absolutely right, Patrick. Story... character... structure... plot... all of these things are a thousand times more important than technology. And I think they are much, much harder, because they involve creative expression, life experience, emotion, empathy, timing, and a hundred other things. Just getting a good idea is really, really tough.

I think some of the greatest films ever made basically ask a question: what if a teenager accidentally went back in time and met his mother in the 1950s? What if a farm boy became a hero flying a spaceship in battle against an oppressive enemy? What if a crippled photographer began to suspect his neighbor had murdered his wife? All of these are simple ideas on the surface, but they had massive impact as films.

I think all you can do as a writer is read as many compelling scripts and novels as you can and note how successful pros manage the process. I think it's true that you have to come up with a killer concept that distributors will buy into, but there's so many other intangibles (like casting and style) that affect the final film, the idea, characters, structure, and story alone won't carry it.

 

[Craig Parkes]

Story is hard because it is the distillation of human experience to make something new.

Talking about the way you learn tools goes a long way to show how different and hard story is.

Story would be finding a compelling reason that you learnt to use the tools you have the way you have, communicating not what just what or how you learnt, but also why you ate the sort of person who learns things that way.

The fact that you don't know why you struggle with story so much is a perfect example of why you might struggle with story.

Someone who naturally is inclined towards seeing the world a particular way and communicating that in an entertainig way is a good story teller. They build a narrative out of half truths and assumptions about what people are 'REALLY' like, or about the world as they imagine it fro tgere oint of view.

The world they see out there window has a particular, immutable sense of narrative, either due to live experiences (Josef Conrad), unique imagination (Dr Seuss) or quick wit and limitless bravado (Russel Brand).

You need to authoritatively believe in a way the world is, and that through the lens of that how people will respond to the story you are telling. Not everyone will respond that way, but those who do are likely your audience, and they are the ones who will appreciate your work.

If your work is fostered only in imagination for entertainment you are missing the key ingredient - either a central truth for your audience or a central lie they want to believe. And even once you have all that' it's still hard.

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

I've always found story tough, every once in a while I'll get a concept or an idea or maybe a subject matter and think "this could make a compelling film" but then I'll sort of get to the guts of it which is what is the most compelling way to tell this story and I'll soon find myself placing it on the shelf to think about at a later date. The short film I completed recently is an idea I got 2 years ago but it wasn't until I think 3 weeks ago that I decided on a way to tell the story and mapped it out through an outline.
I dunno, maybe Aaron Sorkin is right maybe you've either got it or you don't.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

My tips are...

- Don't read books about screenwriting. Read screenplays, a lot of screenplays.

- Write every day, even if you don't want to write or know what you should write (brain plasticity).

- Always do a plot outline, or start out your journey as a writer doing it. Some writers might work best by just writing, but knowing about plot outlines and treatments is as essential as knowing how to light as a photographer (You might get good images most of the time, but knowing how is better all the time).

- Have readers who don't hold back criticism, but let all those readers be writers themselves.

- Characters and story are inseparable, they are the same thing. They cannot exist without each other and their change over time is connected.

- Let every character speak in their own voice, build them upon backstory and let that guide how and what they say.

- Start out each character with a need and a want. The protagonist is the most important character to have this and the story should reflect that journey. Want and need are most of the time two different things, the want is the thing we know, the protagonist want something, it's the base of the story, but the need is something connected to the protagonists flaws. The character has something internally that he/she can't explain, something they need but don't know. During the journey and events that need becomes more and more clear either to the audience or to the character or both. The need is bigger than the want. Sometimes the need is furfilled after they got what they want, but sometimes and most interestingly is when the want is in conflict with what they need and they change to accept that need over what they originally wanted.

- Don't let acts confuse you, find as many points in each act that you find necessary to guide you. Some people only need act breaks, some people need to know every beat in every scene, but don't experiment without acts without knowing how to write with acts.

- Build your outline in steps. From large parts to smaller parts of your story; Story > Acts > Sequences > Scenes > Beats

- Show don't tell, try writing a scene without dialogue first, how do people move, what is shown, how do people act/react, then put in dialogue. Look at the beginning of Mad Max 2, it's exposition without dialogue. Seems like a cliché, but too many fail for it to be.

- Read

- Read

- Read

- Read

 

[Antony Newman]

I often wonder if talented artists 'loose their way' in the film creation process, or if my own emotional engine differs sufficiently to cause me to 'loose my way' when witnessing their creating for the first time.

On reading aloud a single page concept for a music video to friends, I found that some teared up - at the same point that I 'got sucked in' emotionally when I was developing it. However, handing this same page to people to read to themselves in front of me, produced a mostly verbal response asking about the characters. I think this disparity in response creates uncertainty on whether concept, story or script have 'nailed it' - and during the creative process, whether it is time to move onto the next stage.

Conceptual artists may be incredible at juggling ideas, enjoy toying with abstraction and contemplating broad sweeping thoughts all day long - but that arousal (*) does not necessarily extend to the minutiae of dialogue or the delicate enigma of final delivery. Does this sound like you - or are you excited by developing stories and are looking for ways to improve your efficacy?

AJ

(*) by 'arousal', I mean it in an HSP way / Book by Elaine Aron.

 

[PatrickFaith]

So...

You write
You find creative people to help you on set actors, HoD, etc.
You direct
You listen
You make decisions
You edit

Then you present
Does it work for your audience?
Did it work for you?

I agree on this "loop" that happens many times in a creating film. One thing I'm fanatical on is that observers are creators, and creators are observers, so the creative process is reentrant.

Have something you truly want to tell. Truly believe in. Not the story, something to tell. For example "true love is forgiveness" and then use that in a story/your story

I've read pretty much all the "classic" 5 star script books. Each one I think i've got something from, but I think the problem with the script books is they think the story is in the script, but I think the script is only a element in the story which is created in the production of the film. I a 100% agree on "truly believe in", that has to be the core.

I believe you're absolutely right, Patrick. Story... character... structure... plot... all of these things are a thousand times more important than technology. And I think they are much, much harder, because they involve creative expression, life experience, emotion, empathy, timing, and a hundred other things. Just getting a good idea is really, really tough.

I think some of the greatest films ever made basically ask a question: what if a teenager accidentally went back in time and met his mother in the 1950s? What if a farm boy became a hero flying a spaceship in battle against an oppressive enemy? What if a crippled photographer began to suspect his neighbor had murdered his wife? All of these are simple ideas on the surface, but they had massive impact as films.

I think all you can do as a writer is read as many compelling scripts and novels as you can and note how successful pros manage the process. I think it's true that you have to come up with a killer concept that distributors will buy into, but there's so many other intangibles (like casting and style) that affect the final film, the idea, characters, structure, and story alone won't carry it.

I really appreciate all your advice while I've been on Reduser Marc, it's just spot on. How I mentally restate what your saying is there is a core concept/heart of a story that has to be there, otherwise during the management of the process things just start to de-rail. Problem is it's so hard to loose the heart during the management process, especially on heavy vfx/animation projects. I btw think the industry in Hollywood totally get's this problem, I've gotten some of my best "nurturing" help from people where I had pegged as some giant machine/system.

Story is hard because it is the distillation of human experience to make something new...

While reading what you said, I visualized pealing an onion surrounding a soul.

My tips are...

- Don't read books about screenwriting. Read screenplays, a lot of screenplays.

- Write every day, even if you don't want to write or know what you should write (brain plasticity).

Well I'm more of a visual/audio person ... so I watch a film everyday at least I've read a bunch of screenplays, even on films I like I find them tedious and boring. What I prefer to do is walk through the pre-production and production story boards, makes a lot more sense to me. My bias against linear forms (i.e. scripts), is part of my battle with story, in that a lot of people correlate story with scripts(which i don't). I think this is one reason why i start with music, and let the music tie the story together at a formative stage rather then a script. This process is I think a lot different then most, so sometimes gets me in trouble.

...

Conceptual artists may be incredible at juggling ideas, enjoy toying with abstraction and contemplating broad sweeping thoughts all day long - but that arousal (*) does not necessarily extend to the minutiae of dialogue or the delicate enigma of final delivery. Does this sound like you - or are you excited by developing stories and are looking for ways to improve your efficacy?

AJ

(*) by 'arousal', I mean it in an HSP way / Book by Elaine Aron.

I actually haven't read anything from Elaine Aron, I'll put that on my list. One thing I found when watching my dailies was the concept was there, but the efficacy was missing. A process change I've recently made is moving to a lot more performance capture so people can connect to the abstraction. I've watched the behind the scene footage and comments from Andy Serkis a ton recently, I think Andy is someone that totally gets "story". The relationship between actor and story is something I've been pondering a lot recently. Andy's method, since he is forced to break it down to deal with the technology, has really helped me out. I btw think a great thing about RED/Foundry/Autodesk is all the improvements to the tools of story creation made in major films, is directly usable in my production. I think the fact that I actually do have all the tools I need to make a great film, put's more pressure on the story(i.e. there's no excuse for a low budget film not having all the tools it needs).

 

[Elsie N]

I agree on this "loop" that happens many times in a creating film. One thing I'm fanatical on is that observers are creators, and creators are observers, so the creative process is reentrant.


I've read pretty much all the "classic" 5 star script books. Each one I think i've got something from, but I think the problem with the script books is they think the story is in the script, but I think the script is only a element in the story which is created in the production of the film. I a 100% agree on "truly believe in", that has to be the core.

I really appreciate all your advice while I've been on Reduser Marc, it's just spot on. How I mentally restate what your saying is there is a core concept/heart of a story that has to be there, otherwise during the management of the process things just start to de-rail. Problem is it's so hard to loose the heart during the management process, especially on heavy vfx/animation projects. I btw think the industry in Hollywood totally get's this problem, I've gotten some of my best "nurturing" help from people where I had pegged as some giant machine/system.


While reading what you said, I visualized pealing an onion surrounding a soul.


Well I'm more of a visual/audio person ... so I watch a film everyday at least I've read a bunch of screenplays, even on films I like I find them tedious and boring. What I prefer to do is walk through the pre-production and production story boards, makes a lot more sense to me. My bias against linear forms (i.e. scripts), is part of my battle with story, in that a lot of people correlate story with scripts(which i don't). I think this is one reason why i start with music, and let the music tie the story together at a formative stage rather then a script. This process is I think a lot different then most, so sometimes gets me in trouble.


I actually haven't read anything from Elaine Aron, I'll put that on my list. One thing I found when watching my dailies was the concept was there, but the efficacy was missing. A process change I've recently made is moving to a lot more performance capture so people can connect to the abstraction. I've watched the behind the scene footage and comments from Andy Serkis a ton recently, I think Andy is someone that totally gets "story". The relationship between actor and story is something I've been pondering a lot recently. Andy's method, since he is forced to break it down to deal with the technology, has really helped me out. I btw think a great thing about RED/Foundry/Autodesk is all the improvements to the tools of story creation made in major films, is directly usable in my production. I think the fact that I actually do have all the tools I need to make a great film, put's more pressure on the story(i.e. there's no excuse for a low budget film not having all the tools it needs).

I concur with your scripts vs. story statement. I think this is why your project has an improved chance to succeed. Granted, there are many top Directors that can take someone else's words and get that on screen. They, along with a DP who can speak visually, have a rare talent.

The Indie movie-maker also has a rare talent that allows that person to change the words to fit the story, if necessary. The really rare ones are the ones who can recognize when that is needed.

The thing that has become apparent, and impresses me BTW, is that you seek to make a very good movie rather than just trying to get a movie under your belt. Obviously you have and are willing to further expend time and energy to get it right.

I see this as impossible if you have investors/producers who are concentrating on ROI rather than ROC (Return on Creativity.)

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Well I'm more of a visual/audio person ... so I watch a film everyday at least I've read a bunch of screenplays, even on films I like I find them tedious and boring. What I prefer to do is walk through the pre-production and production story boards, makes a lot more sense to me. My bias against linear forms (i.e. scripts), is part of my battle with story, in that a lot of people correlate story with scripts(which i don't). I think this is one reason why i start with music, and let the music tie the story together at a formative stage rather then a script. This process is I think a lot different then most, so sometimes gets me in trouble.

The thing is that while I respect your creative process, if you're going to write something that will involve a lot of people using the screenplay as a blueprint for their work, you need to first write according to how a screenplay should look and inform the crew and actors. Otherwise it will be like a handwritten blueprint of a house, "kinda almost accurate for doing that wall over there".

On top of that, if you want to make a movie and not a video art installation, good storytelling is essential for succeeding with it. Good storytelling transcends the medium, it's the same for books, screenplays, games, plays or whatever. Learning good storytelling you need to understand the craft of it and how it works. By reading screenplays you will understand more about storytelling through that tool than by watching movies. How is a scene written, how does it connect to the overall story arc and how do the characters speak.

You might be fine with the creative way you use now, but as you said yourself, your process sometimes get you into trouble and it will certainly hold you back until you apply the craft of screenwriting and storytelling to bring your collaborators the blueprint they need for every aspect of making a movie.

 

[Elsie N]

The thing is that while I respect your creative process, if you're going to write something that will involve a lot of people using the screenplay as a blueprint for their work, you need to first write according to how a screenplay should look and inform the crew and actors. Otherwise it will be like a handwritten blueprint of a house, "kinda almost accurate for doing that wall over there".

On top of that, if you want to make a movie and not a video art installation, good storytelling is essential for succeeding with it. Good storytelling transcends the medium, it's the same for books, screenplays, games, plays or whatever. Learning good storytelling you need to understand the craft of it and how it works. By reading screenplays you will understand more about storytelling through that tool than by watching movies. How is a scene written, how does it connect to the overall story arc and how do the characters speak.

You might be fine with the creative way you use now, but as you said yourself, your process sometimes get you into trouble and it will certainly hold you back until you apply the craft of screenwriting and storytelling to bring your collaborators the blueprint they need for every aspect of making a movie.

I know I'm stepping on Patrick's domain by responding to one of the things posted, but for me personally when I see a script I see it as a director and not as a writer. I think the movie is the best way to understand a story, as that exposes whether it be well-told or poorly done.

ADDITIONAL: To Patrick

Christoffer's post triggered a realization about my own work. That is, the project I'm working on now was originally written as a Play. When you write a Play you tend to describe what the characters are actually thinking and the things going on around them. This is very helpful in putting meaning to the story.

Once you've got the story told in this manner, it is very easy to convert it to a screenplay via the many software format tools available.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I know I'm stepping on Patrick's domain by responding to one of the things posted, but for me personally when I see a script I see it as a director and not as a writer. I think the movie is the best way to understand a story, as that exposes whether it be well-told or poorly done.

I think you are both right and wrong about this. As a director, reading screenplays AND watching the movies are is the best way since you can see the difference between the written story and the final cut. You can see what's removed, what's changed and maybe how an actor delivered a line. You start to understand the work getting the words on the page to the story told on screen.
But if you are going to write a story you absolutely NEED to understand the craft of a story. As I mentioned, it transcends the medium but for a filmmaker, if you want to write your own story, you can't start out with the finished product. You need to see how a screenplay tells that story. Otherwise it's like looking at a finished puzzle trying to figure out how it was solved instead of solving it yourself.

Screenwriting is a process of it's own that needs to be adressed with the writers hat on. Directing is whole other craft than writing the screenplay. If you want to understand and improve your process as a screenwriter, in which the actually story for the film is crafted, you need to adress the aspects of the screenwriting craft rather than the directing craft. To make it more clear, screenwriting is the story-creation while directing is the story-telling. Understanding story is connected to the creation of a story rather than the telling the story.

If we strictly look at the craft of creating stories through screenwriting, there are certain things that's better than watching movies and that is reading, screenplays and books, since they use the written word to communicate the story. Screenwriting is all about creating the best possible story in a blueprint that is crystal clear for everyone and that kind of practice is not found in finished movies or books about screenwriting, but actually reading screenplays. Of course there are some basic things that should be clear and that you can find in those screenwriting books, but I summed up most of them in one page, the rest of those books would probably just make all those "rules" more complicated to understand, which they did for me, so I relearned by doing instead.

 

[Elsie N]

I think you are both right and wrong about this. As a director, reading screenplays AND watching the movies are is the best way since you can see the difference between the written story and the final cut. You can see what's removed, what's changed and maybe how an actor delivered a line. You start to understand the work getting the words on the page to the story told on screen.
But if you are going to write a story you absolutely NEED to understand the craft of a story. As I mentioned, it transcends the medium but for a filmmaker, if you want to write your own story, you can't start out with the finished product. You need to see how a screenplay tells that story. Otherwise it's like looking at a finished puzzle trying to figure out how it was solved instead of solving it yourself.

Screenwriting is a process of it's own that needs to be adressed with the writers hat on. Directing is whole other craft than writing the screenplay. If you want to understand and improve your process as a screenwriter, in which the actually story for the film is crafted, you need to adress the aspects of the screenwriting craft rather than the directing craft. To make it more clear, screenwriting is the story-creation while directing is the story-telling. Understanding story is connected to the creation of a story rather than the telling the story.

If we strictly look at the craft of creating stories through screenwriting, there are certain things that's better than watching movies and that is reading, screenplays and books, since they use the written word to communicate the story. Screenwriting is all about creating the best possible story in a blueprint that is crystal clear for everyone and that kind of practice is not found in finished movies or books about screenwriting, but actually reading screenplays. Of course there are some basic things that should be clear and that you can find in those screenwriting books, but I summed up most of them in one page, the rest of those books would probably just make all those "rules" more complicated to understand, which they did for me, so I relearned by doing instead.

This is where I strongly disagree, at least from an Indie point of view.

My approach to movie-making is holistic. EVERYTHING advances on a broad front after the story has germinated.

Personally I don't even need a script per sae, but if I have one it will be a Director's script with notations scribbled all over it as something comes to mind ahead of time. And generally I have formed many of the ways to proceed well in advance... like months in advance, even as I formulate the story.

But that's just my approach. I realize others are classically trained and follow the formula.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

This is where I strongly disagree, at least from an Indie point of view.

My approach to movie-making is holistic. EVERYTHING advances on a broad front after the story has germinated.

Personally I don't even need a script per sae, but if I have one it will be a Director's script with notations scribbled all over it as something comes to mind ahead of time. And generally I have formed many of the ways to proceed well in advance... like months in advance, even as I formulate the story.

But that's just my approach. I realize others are classically trained and follow the formula.

How big is your film crew and cast? How big is the production (budget/marketing/distribution)? I absolutely get that if you're doing a small indie-production you are free to do whatever you want.
But if you want a larger budget, even for a smaller indie-film, you need to be able to present your story to people who could finance your movie, without a great script you will be rejected all the time, without a script at all you will not even get past "hello".

As for the crew, cast and creatives in post production, if you don't have a screenplay as a blueprint for them, they will have a problem working with your movie. The screenplay is the blueprint that everyone is working from and without it there will be chaos, even if it's only on a creative plane. If you don't care about a screenplay you are actually just focusing on your own work and if you are directing you steal away your collaborators ability to connect to the material, with them only looking to you to tell them everything, which is great if you are godlike in your ability to keep an entire movie in your head and notes while giving them all the answers to everything.

It's not about being classically trained or following a formula. Story is a craft like any other. If you make a movie with people you know and keep it simple, small, zero budget and without any thoughts on marketing for releasing the movie, then yeah, you do what you want, but if you want to make movies with a production company and hired crew and cast with financers etc. it's not about a "classic formula", it's about how the industry works. It's like if a cinematographer comes on set and says "I don't really care about lighting, I improvise the camera position and we see how the images gets". How many producers, cast and crew will feel great about that?

It all depends on what type of movie you make. But as for creating an actual story, just listen to successful writers in both literature and screenwriting, what they say isn't bullshit, they didn't get to where they are because of luck or improv but because they learned the craft of creating a story in the first place.

If you do your thing, do it, if you aspire to work in "a higher league", learn the craft... simple as that.
If you want to tell YOUR story in the best possible way, don't dismiss thousands of years of storytelling craft, otherwise you risk throwing your great idea away on something that almost works.

 

[Elsie N]

How big is your film crew and cast? How big is the production (budget/marketing/distribution)? I absolutely get that if you're doing a small indie-production you are free to do whatever you want.
But if you want a larger budget, even for a smaller indie-film, you need to be able to present your story to people who could finance your movie, without a great script you will be rejected all the time, without a script at all you will not even get past "hello".

As for the crew, cast and creatives in post production, if you don't have a screenplay as a blueprint for them, they will have a problem working with it. The screenplay is the blueprint that everyone is working from and without it there will be chaos, even if it's only on a creative plane.

It's not about being classically trained or following a formula. Story is a craft like any other. If you make a movie with people you know and keep it simple, small, zero budget and without any marketing thought for releasing the movie, then yeah, you do what you want, but if you want to make movies with a production company and hired crew and cast with financers etc. it's not about a "classic formula" how the industry works. It's like if a cinematographers comes on set and says "I don't really care about lighting, I improvise the camera position and we see how the images gets". How many producers, cast and crew will feel great about that?

It all depends on what type of movie you make. But as for creating an actual story, just listen to successful writers in both literature and screenwriting, what they say isn't bullshit, they didn't get to where they are because of luck or improv but because they know the craft of creating a story.

If you do your thing, do it, if you aspire to work in "a higher league", learn the craft... simple as that.

And if you aspire to do things through the studio system, by all means... follow their rules. The first rule of Indie movie-making is, there are no rules... to paraphrase Fight Club.

Christoffer, I'm not disparaging following the rules to make movies... I'm just saying there is more than one way to skin a cat.

That said, I may someday bend to the establishment rules and write a screenplay for sale, but if I do I will turn it over to the studio system and be done with it. But my best stuff (I have 10, possibly 13 movie (possible 3-quel) ideas in my memory bank, and I will shoot the best of them myself... Kickstarter willing.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

You are of course free to do whatever you want, but making a movie is a team effort, it's not only doing it. You may have a lot of ideas, everyone has ideas, but creating a film from them with a team and getting people wanting to see your movie is hard and story/storytelling-craft means to try out and print those ideas into a workable blueprint while at the same time use techniques for keeping an audience hooked on the story told.

Why I keep coming back to this is that I've seen so many with your line of thought and they are either successful art film creators or highly unsuccessful filmmakers who give up after wasting a good portion of their life to half-baked films. I would recommend listening to these guys (http://johnaugust.com/podcast) to get into the mindset of what it truly takes to create a story/movie that connects with people. Otherwise you only do something for yourself and good luck getting a team to make that for you.

 

[Elsie N]

Patrick, to further my distinction between mainstream movie-making and a holistic approach, maybe you follow what I'm about to say and if not, think about if it works for you.

That is, by holistic I mean writing the story both from a story perspective but also from a director's and even a producer's perspective. My own project was written as an easily produced Play with as few locations and props as possible while still being able to tell the story. This gave me a leg up when thinking of it as a feature in that I could make this movie very inexpensively. Small cast of characters, limited wardrobe requirements, many of which I already had and many others I easily and inexpensively attained.

When I go Kickstarter, I can set a low goal that is easier attained and if the goal goes over, I am able to translate that into more crew, better cast, even more scenes and higher production values.

But even if the Kickstarter fails to reach goal, I can still make this movie via cast and crew expenses out of my own pocket with the promise of participation in the proceeds of the movie... spelled out in detail beforehand.

This approach is only possible because I wrote the story from a Producer, Director, Writer POV. And because I have contingency plans, I can make a different movie based on financing.