Why Fixed Lens first?

[Eric Rodemann]

I don't get the logic of releasing a fixed lens Scarlet first. Why not the interchangeable lens version first?

It seems like NOT adding a fixed lens, and just making camera with a lens mount, would be easier than manufacturing a fixed lens camera. Or am I wrong about that?

I do understand the market for both options, but it just seems like the common sense approach (unless I'm missing something that is counterintuitive) would be to release the camera with lens mount only, and then release the fixed lens option, not the other way around.

Is it a marketing decision? Do more customers want a fixed lens option, than an interchangeable lens option?

The Scarlet seems like overkill for ENG run and gun sorts of applications, and the cinema, indie crowd will probably want to shoot with primes, right?

 

[Benoît-Joan Clariana-Roig]

It seems like NOT adding a fixed lens, and just making camera with a lens mount, would be easier than manufacturing a fixed lens camera. Or am I wrong about that?

I guess it's actually easier to create a fixed lens camera : with the interchangable Scarlet you have to create a firmware compatible with a LOT of lenses and that implies many many many tests... :mad2:

 

[Eric Rodemann]

I guess it's actually easier to create a fixed lens camera : with the interchangable Scarlet you have to create a firmware compatible with a LOT of lenses and that implies many many many tests... :mad2:

That makes sense. It would be more of a firmware thing, making sure the Red can communicate with Nikon, Cine lenses, Canon, etc., etc., and writing good firmware takes time.

IMO the interchangeable lens Scarlet is the more exciting camera. I want to see what it can do with a Voigtlander 50mm F1.1 Lecia or something like that.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Uh... Who said the fixed lens would release first?

Although, the interchangeable mount version is a different animal of sorts. The brain is even smaller than the fixed lens model. Firmware for lens support doesn't have a whole lot to do with the release timing. These are profiles that can be continuously updated down the road and for those looking to buy new lenses for the camera, the RED mini primes are going to be one of the best options. They're mechanical with no electronic components, firmware to match the camera, etc..

As for the release timing of the two models, only RED knows. They would release them both today if they could.

From an engineering perspective, I would say the fixed lens model is actually the more complicated of the two. That lens they have designed is pretty impressive. Most any broadcast 2/3" zoom with those specs will sell for upwards of $18K new just for the lens alone. This lens is also why the fixed Scarlet is larger; a good portion of the lens itself is recessed into the camera body.

I'm betting the fixed lens model outsells the interchangeable model by a large margin, even 2 to 3 times over.

 

[Benoît-Joan Clariana-Roig]

Most any broadcast 2/3" zoom with those specs will sell for upwards of $18K new just for the lens alone.

SSShh ! Jarred could hear you ! :leaving:

 

[Leo Sardello]

Uh... Who said the fixed lens would release first?

RED has. Many times. I’m sorry I didn’t go find all the quotes, but they have. Even on their website when it was recently revamped it still said Fixed to be released first. Though I admit that I could no longer find that page with all the Scarlet info on it. And they have always been slated to be close together.

As for the release timing of the two models, only RED knows. They would release them both today if they could.

However,

I totally agree with you here. And given the recent change to the program anything could happen. Not long ago when EPIC-S was Scarlet S35 its release was touted as coming after both Fixed and Cinema, but now that it’s EPIC? Well we don’t really know. There seem to have been some indicators that might suggest a release may be prior to even the Fixed. Seem, some, might, and may be being the key words there.

So yeah, anything could happen. But the OP wasn’t off base in thinking this since RED has said it in the past.

I'm betting the fixed lens model outsells the interchangeable model by a large margin, even 2 to 3 times over.

Yup. 100% agree here!

:cheers2:

 

[Brad Webb]

Mini Primes. That's probably the reason the fixed is coming out first. I would imagine that RED wants to have a good supply of the mini primes ready to ship when the Scarlet interchangeable is ready.

 

[Eric Rodemann]

RED has. Many times. I’m sorry I didn’t go find all the quotes, but they have. Even on their website when it was recently revamped it still said Fixed to be released first. Though I admit that I could no longer find that page with all the Scarlet info on it. And they have always been slated to be close together.


However,

I totally agree with you here. And given the recent change to the program anything could happen. Not long ago when EPIC-S was Scarlet S35 its release was touted as coming after both Fixed and Cinema, but now that it’s EPIC? Well we don’t really know. There seem to have been some indicators that might suggest a release may be prior to even the Fixed. Seem, some, might, and may be being the key words there.

So yeah, anything could happen. But the OP wasn’t off base in thinking this since RED has said it in the past.


Yup. 100% agree here!

:cheers2:

Why do you think the fixed lens will be more popular? Why wouldn't people want the flexibility of interchangeable lenses?

All else being equal, it's all about the glass. Don't you want the option to use mini primes, or some old Zeiss glass?

 

[Nick D]

I don't speak for Red, but financially it makes sense to sell a more expensive model first, promote 3D to sell another, then sell the interchangeable version for use in low light with fast primes in pairs for 3D...

They are skinning the onion layers (that is your pocketbook) of potential customers and providing reasonable solutions along the way, and that's just SMART!

 

[Eric Rodemann]

I don't speak for Red, but financially it makes sense to sell a more expensive model first, promote 3D to sell another, then sell the interchangeable version for use in low light with fast primes in pairs for 3D...

They are skinning the onion that is your pocketbook and providing reasonable solutions along the way, and that's just SMART!

Makes sense I suppose. You hit the nail on the head. What I'm most interested in is low light with fast primes. It means easier set ups in cramped spaces (like a car interior at night, or a bathroom). :bath:

 

[Aaron Newsome]

I would think a fixed lens would be infinitely easier. Designing an OLPF for exactly one circumstance compared to an infinite number of circumstances? I'd choose the one. That's just one example. The same logic would apply to numerous components along the camera's path. My guess is fixed is infinitely easier.

They could even employ some magic to eke some extra percieved mtf, since it's just the one lens.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

I think that the Fixed is targetting more of the 3D work for low budget productions (which actually would be easier with the Fixed model as you have a bunch of focal lenght in a package and a total electronic control of the lens that makes it easier to sync between the pair of cameras). Maybe to counter some other brands in that market like Panasonic with their 3D prosumer camcorders...*
Also Scarlet Fixed is targetting a lot of documentary workers because the package is so easy to carry. I'm thinking some great BBC docmumentaries in some jungles filming animals, nature and hidden places above a waterfall (can't remember the title of that one !).
And for cinema, shorts or comercials, it can also be a money saver for small production companies. And don't forget that even with all the S35 fever that HDSLR have launched, there's still a lot of 16mm enthousiasts and so the Scarlet could be a nice camera for them (yes, I know, the sensor is not really 16mm but you have redcode !).

Scarlet Cinema (a.k.a "interchangeable") is more for more expansive productions. I'm thinking that it will compete directly with Sony's F23 and SRW9000. I don't care about HDCAM-SR 444 RGB VS Redcode stuff, even if bitrates numbers are lower on Redcode, it is not a good comparison. HDCAM-SR with a Log curve is surely a really high quality format BUT not as flexible as a RAW (even compressed like Redcode is as it is wavelet).
So I think the Scarlet Cinema will be for production companies that can afford lenses.
Sadely, I don't see cinematrographers using Mini Primes. I'm sure they'll want to put Zeiss Digiprimes on the camera. Not because Red Mini Primes would be bad lenses, just because the form factor will need to use smaller follow focuses and matt boxes.

But hey, maybe I'm completely wrong !
The only thing I know for sure is that I can't wait to see a Scarlet in my hands !

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I think Scarlet Fixed was conceived before the current wave of "buzz" around 3D grew to be as loud as it is. So, no, I don't think the Fixed was all about 3D, however great it will be for that. I also think that the RED stance all along has been to release the Fixed first; seems like that was almost a foregone conclusion based on what was being said around here. (Yeah, I am too lazy to go find the posts.) And since they have been very proud of the quality of the lens, and it is so very far along in its development, I sincerely think it will either be first (probable), or they will be released simultaneously (although I doubt that).

But, I might be wrong, too, and of course, all things are subject to change. It's all conjecture...

 

[Jeff Coatney]

The Fixed lens Scarlet will meet huge demand when shipped. Because of this, the fixed lens Scarlet requires a manufacturing partner capable of hitting the volume projections for launch inventories at the announced price structure. Factors include: QC of large volumes of fixed lens sub-assemblies, large scale optical element manufacturing, testing, etc. Once a partner is selected, the production line and tooling ramp-up is considerable, requiring upwards of 90 to 120 days for build-out, training and raw material acquisition in some cases. But production levels will likely start at 20% of projected peak through-put (by week 3). This could be as high as 1,000 finished units per day, in theory (by week 6). My guess is that at peak productivity, as many as 2,500 units per week (12 hour day x6) hit the domestic distribution centers in North America and Europe. Assuming lens sub-assembly can meet its targets and there is no serious defect ratio for optical elements.

While the Fixed lens will be a great camera, it is more likely that the interchangeable lens Scarlet will be more adaptable for 3D, as it will be very difficult to electronically match focal length settings from one fixed lens zoom to the next with the precision that the 3D effect requires. The demand for the interchangeable lens Scarlet can probably be met by Red's domestic factory, therefore getting the bigger factory started is the higher priority.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

3D work is easier with manual primes ?
I didn't know that. I was assuming it was not indeed.:bored:

 

[Thor Melsted]

While the Fixed lens will be a great camera, it is more likely that the interchangeable lens Scarlet will be more adaptable for 3D, as it will be very difficult to electronically match focal length settings from one fixed lens zoom to the next with the precision that the 3D effect requires.

If you can sync with external electronic lens motors, why not internal electronic lens motors? This is RED we're talking about, after all. I honestly don't think they'd even include 3D sync on the Fixed if it wasn't capable of matching all lens settings between cameras, considering this is a professional product.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

If you can sync with external electronic lens motors, why not internal electronic lens motors? This is RED we're talking about, after all. I honestly don't think they'd even include 3D sync on the Fixed if it wasn't capable of matching all lens settings between cameras, considering this is a professional product.

Nothing is impossible. The camera has been in development for two+ years. But what are the tolerances? How much precision of movement do you have? Fresh off the assembly line, precision can be predicted, but after months of over-zealous baggage handlers, bumps, collisions and asymmetric wear and tear, how predictable is that syncing precision then? Electronically controlled motors are still mechanically actuated. Microscopic wear, pitting, contamination. These add up over time. They affect performance at varying degrees. Two discreet enclosed systems will deviate in precision over time. Noticeable at 3K? 2K? Who knows? But isolation of the z axis and thus, the focal length, gives you a more predictable match. Do you really want to manage another variable when shooting 3D?

 

[Terry VerHaar]

....

The demand for the interchangeable lens Scarlet can probably be met by Red's domestic factory, therefore getting the bigger factory started is the higher priority.

This comment seems to assume that the interchangeable Scarlet will be produced domestically while the Fixed will be done abroad. Is this just conjecture on your part?

I do recall Jim discussing the need for a new foreign production source (after the existing one seemed to be unavailable), but I always assumed all Scarlets would be produced in the same place, separate from Epics. :001_huh:

 

[David Rasberry]

I remember something to the effect that Scarlet would have to be built overseas to meet cost targets.

 

[Jannard]

I just love it when people post their beliefs as fact. Echoing Jeff's post... who said 8X Fixed was 1st? And who said where we are making either camera?

Jim