Why aren't Red Pro Primes Popular?

[Grzegorz Gill]

I've owned a set of pro primes for over a year now, and I love the look, the characteristics, and the feel. But when I meet new DP's and tell them I use pro primes, they cringe and react in disgust as if they just heard rokinon. The pro primes were so popular with the red one, and epic - x. When did they die, and why?

With the tokinas, and sigmas out now, will these lenses have a come back? Granted the pro primes aren't full frame or as fast, but still fast and share similar looks.

Also same goes for rentals. No one cares, and the average rental rate in LA for a set of pro primes is $100-150. To me that's not worth renting them. LA is just too oversaturated with equipment, which is bad and good.

That angie ez 1 30-90 t2 has caught my attention. I'm thinking of selling off the pro prime set and getting that zoom. Has this zoom gained any popularity? Anyone use it on helium 8k?

Thanks in advance for any notes,
-GG

 

[Samir Patel]

I never had a change to use them in production in the past. I just recently had a opportunity to put the 50mm on a camera and simply just didn't like the way the lens flared. It had some rainbow looking flare but more-so looked like it was reflecting back the inside of the lens or something. Hard to explain but I simply didn't like it.

 

[Grzegorz Gill]

I never had a change to use them in production in the past. I just recently had a opportunity to put the 50mm on a camera and simply just didn't like the way the lens flared. It had some rainbow looking flare but more-so looked like it was reflecting back the inside of the lens or something. Hard to explain but I simply didn't like it.

Yea I know that flare all too well. I also don't like the rainbow flares. Did you like the contrast and sharpness, did you mind the weight?

 

[Rob_Austin]

I had them for 5 years and loved them, but they don't all cover Dragon and they're big and heavy, so I moved on. They
are no doubt a bad investment for rental income.

Great lenses, especially for the money. Superior to many of the more expensive sets.

Don't listen to DP's and pseudo DP's who simply disparage a flawed product that are as valuable as RPPs. Narrow minded reaction

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Size and Brand.

 

[M.Halsell]

Servicing was a quiet part of the discussion with the RPP's as well. Any lens that embraces regular abuse in the industrial marketplace will require servicing options i.e. cost, location, quick turnaround, expertise. The RPP's unfortunately did not have the same level of third party support as some of it's optical brethren.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

The RPPs are better than their reputation suggests. That said, they don't rent well in SoCal. They are big and heavy compared to many other sets. They only cover S35. The 25 and 35 have a different personality than the 50 and 85. The 100 should have been a 135. The 18 has a unique flare character that may or may not fit your intended look. At the time of their release, the RPPs redefined the low end of cinema primes. They were, IMO, essentially UP knockoffs at an appropriately lower price point. Moreover, IMO, they were substantially better than Zeiss CP2s, Rokinons and the first generation Schneiders. The Canon CN-E set was probably the closest competition at a similar price point.

In 2017, the SigmaCINE set is my reference point for "affordable" cinema primes. I still think a clean set of RPPs is worth $10K if you don't need greater than S35 coverage, but with cameras getting so small their jumbo size is something a lot of shooters don't want to deal with.

Cheers - #19

 

[Matt Hall]

The bulkiness and weight of Red Pro Primes is in line with (and sometimes superior to) other brands.

Phil’s lens comparison tool is pretty neat. I chose a few lenses at random to compare to the Red Pro Primes (T1.8): Tokina Cinema Vista (T1.5), Arri/Zeiss Master Primes(T1.3), and Cooke S7/i (T2.0).

The Master Primes and Red Pro Primes only cover S35, while the Tokinas and Cooke lenses cover VV.




RED 25mm 6.16 lbs. ($4200)
Tokina 25mm 4.83 lbs. ($6000)
Arri MP 25mm 5.1 lbs. ($23,000)
Cooke S7/i 25mm 7.28 lbs. (about 22K)

RED 50mm 4.53 lbs. ($4200)
Tokina 50mm 4.65 lbs. ($6000)
Arri MP 50mm 5.9 lbs. ($23,000)
Cooke S7/i 50mm 7.5 lbs. (about 22K)

RED 85mm 4.2 lbs. ($4200)
Tokina 85mm 4.74 lbs. ($5000)

RED 100mm 4.39 lbs. ($4200)
Arri MP 100mm 6.4 lbs. ($27,000)
Cooke S7/i 100mm 7.28 lbs. (about 22K)

Kind of a random look at lenses, but of these 4 focal lengths, RPPs are lighter than the others, with the exception of the 25mm. Side note-- the 18mm RPP is also extremely heavy.

There are, of course, many considerations when choosing a lens besides price and weight. But the Pro Primes are very fast and affordable, and it’s unfortunate that they don’t have a better reputation. I’m definitely planning on keeping mine until I move to 8K. Speaking of which, I can’t wait until upgrade paths for those of us in S-W are announced. I hope that’s still a thing.

 

[Grzegorz Gill]

The RPPs are better than their reputation suggests. That said, they don't rent well in SoCal. They are big and heavy compared to many other sets. They only cover S35. The 25 and 35 have a different personality than the 50 and 85. The 100 should have been a 135. The 18 has a unique flare character that may or may not fit your intended look. At the time of their release, the RPPs redefined the low end of cinema primes. They were, IMO, essentially UP knockoffs at an appropriately lower price point. Moreover, IMO, they were substantially better than Zeiss CP2s, Rokinons and the first generation Schneiders. The Canon CN-E set was probably the closest competition at a similar price point.

In 2017, the SigmaCINE set is my reference point for "affordable" cinema primes. I still think a clean set of RPPs is worth $10K if you don't need greater than S35 coverage, but with cameras getting so small their jumbo size is something a lot of shooters don't want to deal with.

Cheers - #19

Thanks for your notes Blair. I think the weight is a huge problem in SoCal. People like it light weight and compact here, although the new tokinas are large and heavy. All my AC's always complain about not having enough focus marks. The Barrel marks are to large, could have easily added more.

Is it possible that the RPP will make a comeback in next 5 years. Or will they just be lost due to the possibility that lens companies will release cine lenses. It can easily be true that in sometime we will have more than enough budget friendly lens options.

 

[Grzegorz Gill]

Servicing was a quiet part of the discussion with the RPP's as well. Any lens that embraces regular abuse in the industrial marketplace will require servicing options i.e. cost, location, quick turnaround, expertise. The RPP's unfortunately did not have the same level of third party support as some of it's optical brethren.

Good note on service. Duclos stopped their service.

 

[Michael Hastings]

The bulkiness and weight of Red Pro Primes is in line with (and sometimes superior to) other brands.

Phil’s lens comparison tool is pretty neat. I chose a few lenses at random to compare to the Red Pro Primes (T1.8): Tokina Cinema Vista (T1.5), Arri/Zeiss Master Primes(T1.3), and Cooke S7/i (T2.0).

The Master Primes and Red Pro Primes only cover S35, while the Tokinas and Cooke lenses cover VV.




RED 25mm 6.16 lbs. ($4200)
Tokina 25mm 4.83 lbs. ($6000)
Arri MP 25mm 5.1 lbs. ($23,000)
Cooke S7/i 25mm 7.28 lbs. (about 22K)

RED 50mm 4.53 lbs. ($4200)
Tokina 50mm 4.65 lbs. ($6000)
Arri MP 50mm 5.9 lbs. ($23,000)
Cooke S7/i 50mm 7.5 lbs. (about 22K)

RED 85mm 4.2 lbs. ($4200)
Tokina 85mm 4.74 lbs. ($5000)

RED 100mm 4.39 lbs. ($4200)
Arri MP 100mm 6.4 lbs. ($27,000)
Cooke S7/i 100mm 7.28 lbs. (about 22K)

Kind of a random look at lenses, but of these 4 focal lengths, RPPs are lighter than the others, with the exception of the 25mm. Side note-- the 18mm RPP is also extremely heavy.

There are, of course, many considerations when choosing a lens besides price and weight. But the Pro Primes are very fast and affordable, and it’s unfortunate that they don’t have a better reputation. I’m definitely planning on keeping mine until I move to 8K. Speaking of which, I can’t wait until upgrade paths for those of us in S-W are announced. I hope that’s still a thing.

Your chart might be a little misleading as you are comparing to T1.3 master primes and Cooke S7 which also cover full frame
while pro primes are T1.8 and only cover S35 - so not really comparable. They would probably be better compared to Ultraprimes (T1.9) and Cooke S4s (T2).

When you compare those, the Pro Primes are significantly heavier.



RED 25mm 6.16 lbs. ($4200)
Tokina 25mm 4.83 lbs. ($6000)
Arri MP 25mm 5.1 lbs. ($23,000) 24mm Ultraprime T1.9 2.2 lbs.
Cooke S7/i 25mm 7.28 lbs. (about 22K)

RED 50mm 4.53 lbs. ($4200)
Tokina 50mm 4.65 lbs. ($6000)
Arri MP 50mm 5.9 lbs. ($23,000) 50mm Ultraprime T1.9 2.2 lbs.
Cooke S7/i 50mm 7.5 lbs. (about 22K) 50mm Cooke S4 T2 3.3 lbs.

RED 85mm 4.2 lbs. ($4200) 85mm Ultraprime T1.9 2.6 lbs.
Tokina 85mm 4.74 lbs. ($5000)

RED 100mm 4.39 lbs. ($4200)
Arri MP 100mm 6.4 lbs. ($27,000) 100mm Ultraprime T1.9 2.6 lbs.
Cooke S7/i 100mm 7.28 lbs. (about 22K) 100mm Cooke S4 T2 4.4lbs

 

[Matt Bai]

One of the best Digital Cinema pieces I have ever seen was shot on Alexa with Red Pro Primes. Weighting heavily on the lens as to what made it so good. Maybe its as simple as mixing brands (even if they are not RED made lenses per say). Maybe they are even better with IPP2. Really was blown away and do not forget it.

 

[Grzegorz Gill]

One of the best Digital Cinema pieces I have ever seen was shot on Alexa with Red Pro Primes. Weighting heavily on the lens as to what made it so good. Maybe its as simple as mixing brands (even if they are not RED made lenses per say). Maybe they are even better with IPP2. Really was blown away and do not forget it.

What did you see, what's the title? I just shot 2 hip hop videos with my pro primes on the epic w with ipp2. Mostly super soft highlight roll off, the images looked so creamy. Mostly stayed on the 25mm at 8k hd, covers sensor fine. I'm so used to the lenses, so I wouldn't even know how other ones compare, since I mostly shoot the RPP.

 

[Phil Holland]

While there's a great deal of reasons leading up to any lens purchase, I have to say the RPPs represent a hell of a value if you're shooting S35. Optically they are strong, decent speed on the lens, and in many ways they pair nicely with Angie zooms IMO.

Their two big downsides (for some) are weight and coverage. I actually like the flare, though they are prone to it.

I've seen sets go for $5K, which is nuts, but that's where we are in some ways.

The fun bit for me is that 50mm in particular has always been somewhat weak on the UP and MP side, that's why we we see a lot of DPs move up to 65mm primes there. But the RPP 50 is very nice.

As for why they are not "popular". Popularity for lenses is sometimes like fashion, what's in one week isn't the next week, but either way you need to show up and be presentable (as nudity hasn't caught on despite my vigourous efforts). The RPPs hold their own for the format they were designed for.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Re-label them and nobody will raise an eyebrow. Original/fictional brands might work, but established brands are also good. Something like Zeiss Jena would work - the name Zeiss is the lingua franca of optics among TV & film pros, while Jena is a good excuse for why they aren't MPs or UPs or CPs or Super/Standard Speeds.

Edit: Who's the lucky bastard who got a set for $5K?? LOL

 

[Björn Benckert]

To me anything that has "pro" written over it... is usually not what the pros use but what the amateurs that want to be pro´s use. I think producers, directors and DP´s might have the same feel about that. And also RPP´s where big in the shooter / owner part of the industry. Anytime when a DP want to use his own gear, I think it leads to scepticism, as if the producer says " so what lenses are we going to use for this production, we can rent anything " and then DP reply "We can use my RPP´s" then there is a huge conflict of interest, Is the DP saying that because the RPP´s are the best lenses on the planet for the project at hand or does he simply want to get more out of the production budget by also get an extra coin by part timing as a lens rental place.... The more DP´s that own a certain lens the less it seams to be looked up upon.

Same goes with cameras, huge amount of DP´s own RED´s not so many alexa. When the DP sell in his own camera for the job it cause suspicion. Does not matter how much or little you charge for it. Now Arri has not had the problem, pretty much all alexas where owned by rental companies... Until now when DP´s starts to by the minis. I think after a while that will devalue the Arri cams quite a bit.

A DP is supposed to be a consultant for the production, guiding them to the right gear and best possible picture.... Consultants that recommend their own product is simply not trust worthy. RPP´s has been presented in such ways possibly more times than most other brand of lenses. And also together with new digital tech that people had little or no knowledge how to use, back when REDONE came out. So I think its fare to say there is a shitload of ugly pictures shot with RPP´s.

But personally I kind of like them and yes 5k USD is quite a steal.

 

[Michael Jensen]

I also happen to like them. I've heard people say negative things about RPP's but I think most people are parroting what others say. They are a great value.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I think a rehouse and recoat and a fancy pants engraved name whole change peoples attitude alot.

BMy lens know it all kind of guy explained that he thinks they are really good value but he was less excited over the build quality and that they are not so well dust capsuled and the marks tend to be a bit off. Still a good set of lenses. But that was his explanation why he rather dealt with ziess glas such.

 

[Grzegorz Gill]

While there's a great deal of reasons leading up to any lens purchase, I have to say the RPPs represent a hell of a value if you're shooting S35. Optically they are strong, decent speed on the lens, and in many ways they pair nicely with Angie zooms IMO.

Their two big downsides (for some) are weight and coverage. I actually like the flare, though they are prone to it.

I've seen sets go for $5K, which is nuts, but that's where we are in some ways.

The fun bit for me is that 50mm in particular has always been somewhat weak on the UP and MP side, that's why we we see a lot of DPs move up to 65mm primes there. But the RPP 50 is very nice.

As for why they are not "popular". Popularity for lenses is sometimes like fashion, what's in one week isn't the next week, but either way you need to show up and be presentable (as nudity hasn't caught on despite my vigourous efforts). The RPPs hold their own for the format they were designed for.

Thanks for your notes Phill! But the question is, do you think the RPP will ever gain popularity again? I'm deciding if I should hold onto my set, or sell and get the ez 1 - 30-90. The ez 1 will at least make some money back in rentals, in LA. RPP don't rent at all.

 

[Grzegorz Gill]

To me anything that has "pro" written over it... is usually not what the pros use but what the amateurs that want to be pro´s use. I think producers, directors and DP´s might have the same feel about that. And also RPP´s where big in the shooter / owner part of the industry. Anytime when a DP want to use his own gear, I think it leads to scepticism, as if the producer says " so what lenses are we going to use for this production, we can rent anything " and then DP reply "We can use my RPP´s" then there is a huge conflict of interest, Is the DP saying that because the RPP´s are the best lenses on the planet for the project at hand or does he simply want to get more out of the production budget by also get an extra coin by part timing as a lens rental place.... The more DP´s that own a certain lens the less it seams to be looked up upon.

Same goes with cameras, huge amount of DP´s own RED´s not so many alexa. When the DP sell in his own camera for the job it cause suspicion. Does not matter how much or little you charge for it. Now Arri has not had the problem, pretty much all alexas where owned by rental companies... Until now when DP´s starts to by the minis. I think after a while that will devalue the Arri cams quite a bit.

A DP is supposed to be a consultant for the production, guiding them to the right gear and best possible picture.... Consultants that recommend their own product is simply not trust worthy. RPP´s has been presented in such ways possibly more times than most other brand of lenses. And also together with new digital tech that people had little or no knowledge how to use, back when REDONE came out. So I think its fare to say there is a shitload of ugly pictures shot with RPP´s.

But personally I kind of like them and yes 5k USD is quite a steal.

Interesting notes Bjorn. I guess I am in your amateur category then. When a client asks me what camera to use I always push my epic w. Because I do feel it will be best for the job, and 9 times out of 10 I can persuade them to use red instead of any other brand. Plus I do make the rental cost, which is good! When the job asks for a clean crisp modern image, and I get asked what lenses should we use. I again push for my pro primes. If they want an older look, I have no problem getting a vintage set from a rental house. I also have never gotten any suspicion because I own my kit, and have lenses that say the word Pro on them. But with that I also don't do huge shows, and never get asked - you can rent anything you want, what will it be? In LA I hustle the low budget - Indie Industry. So unfortunately that means, I get jobs because I can bring more to the table, equipment wise. I agree with you a DP is a consultant for a production, that is very true. But not to trust him or her because they recommend their own equipment, I don't agree. In LA everyone talks, and are more than likely full of shit. So it's refreshing to know that a DP has a solid kit and hustles it. You can trust and see the DP knows that kit inside and out, and most likely can trouble shoot any problem, because they own the kit.

The overall goal is to only have a set of lenses and commit to a style. But I'm not there yet, so I'm trying to figure out if I should sell off the pro primes and maybe hustle that ez 1 with the epic w for a while. Have you played with the ez 1 and 2? What are you thoughts with those two zooms?