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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Who prefers the look of One Mx to Epic?

Eric-taner said:
They look the same, lets say i would show you movie with epic and redone footage mixed you would have to guess which is which, so you dont even need an epic, but of course people always wana have the so called best camera at the moment, but it is still the same as it was a 100 years ago, making a good movie has nothing to do with the camera...
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Actually I happen to think all three look slightly different. But if you expose for their similarities, they will look very similar. Expose more challenging in top and bottom, and Epic will stand out, both @ over- and underexposure.
 
Eric-taner said:
They look the same, lets say i would show you movie with epic and redone footage mixed you would have to guess which is which, so you dont even need an epic, but of course people always wana have the so called best camera at the moment, but it is still the same as it was a 100 years ago, making a good movie has nothing to do with the camera...
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Groan! Another "It's only the story that matters" post. If that were true we would all be making minimum wage instead of buying Epics. Everything matters. Cameras matter, lights matter, post matters.

I don't know if you've ever been on a real, professional set, but let me tell you when you have 100 extras and the owner of the location is telling you you have to leave and there is no time to get the light quite right a good camera saves you from getting a shot or not, the camera matters. So you really think that Hitchcock or Eisenstein said "The camera doesn't matter?"

Why don't you go on eBay, buy yourself a VHS camcorder, and shoot your "brilliant masterpiece". What are you doing on this forum?
 
It's funny I've been asking myself that question for a few months... I think I'm not familiar yet with how clean the Epic looks. After nearly 4 years of shooting with the R1, I was confident, working in a certain comfort zone, getting a certain filmic look... Now I see just how different the Epic looks. I think of this as the camera personality... The R1 had a strong personality, very filmic, like a unique signature. The Epic is more versatile, more anonymous, you can give it any look in post... It's very destabilizing at first, but you can't argue with the quality...
 
Okay...

What I believe is this...

Very few will see a difference... TILL...


They shoot both cameras at their full resolution, and project the images on a very large movie screen in 4k...


We did, and EPIC far out wins the R1 MX... BY FAR!!

How???


Don't ask me, same sensor, but higher resolution, better dynamic range, better compression ratios, and its about all that I can thing of of WHY, but I'm not that technical neither I care to be, only I care to have the camera that shoots the best images in the world, because I can afford it, and because I want to make sure my images are captured with the best I can afford... ;)
 
Rob Ruffo said:
Groan! Another "It's only the story that matters" post. If that were true we would all be making minimum wage instead of buying Epics. Everything matters. Cameras matter, lights matter, post matters.

I don't know if you've ever been on a real, professional set, but let me tell you when you have 100 extras and the owner of the location is telling you you have to leave and there is no time to get the light quite right a good camera saves you from getting a shot or not, the camera matters. So you really think that Hitchcock or Eisenstein said "The camera doesn't matter?"

Why don't you go on eBay, buy yourself a VHS camcorder, and shoot your "brilliant masterpiece". What are you doing on this forum?
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LOL! This post is spot on!
 
They both record raw data (j2k) from exactly the same sensor (with the raw pixels rearranged first to aid compression..).. so they obviously are very similar, other than datarate

If the extra data rate of the epic makes cleaner images, its likely because the "lossy" bit of the compression is working on data that still needs to be debayered afterwards, its not the same as a "lossy" compressor working on an RGB files.. so its possible any artifacts could get amplified through the debayering process (though in practice the red debayer seems to er on the side of soft but "edge artifact free")..

as far as im concerned they're both the same camera, and im miffed after making a conscious decision to not roll with the mx (i handed in an m sensor for upgrade), my "options" have meant I have an mx sensor since r1 upgrades ended at mx unless you bought the epic upgrade

also, Im sure Red Dragon will differentiate the two cameras, its just disappointing red dragon will be released months (my guess) before the "Real" monstro sensors start rolling out.. fingers crossed Epic-x gets more than one sensor upgrade in its life as my personal feeling is a full frame monstro sensor, at say, 5k, with larger photosites and the best fill factor possible might tick more of my boxes
 
But everything from the AD and out is different... :)

Actually I am sitting with a mixed project right now (all three). The M and MX are very hard to distinguish, when properly "fat" exposed". All the Epic images... I Pick them every time...
 
Carey Lee Coffey said:
So add noise.
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You should tell that to Fincher and his team. Though I bet they know how to use the cameras and the post process. The IQ is obviously reason why he still chooses to shoot R1.
 
It is an evolution for me.

When I first figured out what it really meant to shoot raw on the R1 then I never wanted to shoot on anything else... until Epic.

However I'm still pretty emotionally attached to the R1 and it was tough to give up. I'm really excited about current and future Epic capabilities and would never look back. But you never forget your first. Anyone that thinks the capabilities of the Red 1 are a match for Epic are being nostalgic in the same way someone would exaggerate the capabilities of an older model sports car.

"Man the Epic is awesome, but I remember the Red One had this amazing, dreamy, blue noise that showed up in low light- it was like azure fire flies dancing on the faces of the actors".
 
Josh Snyder said:
You should tell that to Fincher and his team. Though I bet they know how to use the cameras and the post process. The IQ is obviously reason why he still chooses to shoot R1.
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That's actually not accurate. Fincher used R1 because the Epic wasn't available yet. As soon as they received it towards the end of filming, they started incorporating the Epic. This was covered in their American Cinematographer feature article on Dragon Tattoo.

From what I remember, Fincher does mention that he thought the camera's looked a little different, but I believe he also remarks that they were easy to match in post.

I know a DP who mixes Epic and R1 all the time on promo shoots for AETN, and no one can tell the difference when he delivers the graded One-lights.
 
Shot a commercial last week for BiC and chose the R1 for its heft in handheld shooting. Just came from picking selects at The Cutting Room and the RCX-transcoded one lights looked fantastic. Didn't miss the EPIC at all image-wise. EPIC actually sat in the case for this one while good old RED ONE-MX reminded us all of its veteran status. Very proud day for "Jean Grey." Sad that I've kept it locked in the peli for so long.

As for preferring the look, I think they are pretty similar to me. The DR and cleaner image is the only noticeable thing on the EPIC, so I guess it wins out just a bit in terms of preference. Considering that close comparison, I can't believe what R1's are being sold for on reduser marketplace. Criminal!
 
Mike Hechanova said:
Shot a commercial last week for BiC and chose the R1 for its heft in handheld shooting. Just came from picking selects at The Cutting Room and the RCX-transcoded one lights looked fantastic. Didn't miss the EPIC at all image-wise. EPIC actually sat in the case for this one while good old RED ONE-MX reminded us all of its veteran status. Very proud day for "Jean Grey." Sad that I've kept it locked in the peli for so long.

As for preferring the look, I think they are pretty similar to me. The DR and cleaner image is the only noticeable thing on the EPIC, so I guess it wins out just a bit in terms of preference. Considering that close comparison, I can't believe what R1's are being sold for on reduser marketplace. Criminal!
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R1 practical production value today is incredible 4years on
 
J.D. Frey said:
It is an evolution for me.

When I first figured out what it really meant to shoot raw on the R1 then I never wanted to shoot on anything else... until Epic.

However I'm still pretty emotionally attached to the R1 and it was tough to give up. I'm really excited about current and future Epic capabilities and would never look back. But you never forget your first. Anyone that thinks the capabilities of the Red 1 are a match for Epic are being nostalgic in the same way someone would exaggerate the capabilities of an older model sports car.

"Man the Epic is awesome, but I remember the Red One had this amazing, dreamy, blue noise that showed up in low light- it was like azure fire flies dancing on the faces of the actors".
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I love you post! You actually made me laugh out loud!
 
One day we'll see a plug-in for the famous R1 effect, like there are film grain simulators now…
 
Over all I'm very happy with the Epic but I do like the 2K images from the R1 much much more than from the Epic. 2K from R1 had a coarse noise that 'felt' much more like 16mm film IMHO. The 2K from Epic 'feels' digital and mechanical (again, IMHO). Not sure if this is the result of the 200-ish lines of resolution difference between the two (Epic has less at 2K).
 
Paul J Steinberg said:
Over all I'm very happy with the Epic but I do like the 2K images from the R1 much much more than from the Epic. 2K from R1 had a coarse noise that 'felt' much more like 16mm film IMHO. The 2K from Epic 'feels' digital and mechanical (again, IMHO). Not sure if this is the result of the 200-ish lines of resolution difference between the two (Epic has less at 2K).
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Less resolution on Epic @2K???????
I hope you are wrong because I will have students shooting 2K on our Epic this autumn.
We have always been very happy with the R1 M & MX at 2K, using Zeiss S16mm glass.......
 
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