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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Who is RED?

Lee Saxon said:
The fact that Red saying "no more prosumer, we're pro only" was interpreted as "Massive price hikes! Scarlet is now $80k" speaks to just how bad Sony et al have been ripping people off over the years. The entire cine market has PTSD.
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Yeah, that's about the size of it. Anyone who's been around and doing indie stuff for a while starts having flashbacks to trade shows where Sony or Panasonic introduced a new camcorder that looked like it would be really useful until the $70,000 price tag was announced a few weeks later.

Pictures of guys like David Fincher and Peter Jackson with Epic prototypes probably hasn't helped. I mean, you want David Fincher out there shooting with Epics, both to see what he does with them and in the hope that he'll have Kubrickian notes for RED after he's wrapped. But it sort of gives the impression that RED have settled into their new Hollywood home and forgotten about the people who aren't shooting projects with budgets in the tens of millions.

Of course the wait is what's done it, really. The world has taken some strange turns in the last couple of years and it's understandable that things are running late, but the wait has been fairly brutal for the faithful. Hopefully it won't be too much longer.
 
Lee Saxon said:
The fact that Red saying "no more prosumer, we're pro only" was interpreted as "Massive price hikes! Scarlet is now $80k" speaks to just how bad Sony et al have been ripping people off over the years. The entire cine market has PTSD.
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Couldn't be said better. A lot of us have been trained to hear "pro" as "you can't afford it." Apparently a lot of people interpreted it that way, but they missed the lesson of free firmware updates, free software, etc. That's one thing I really appreciate about Red. There's none of this "we could put X feature in, but we're going to hold it back so we can charge more for another model." I never imagined the price of any models would be increased "just because".

(Yes, I know I'm one who expressed concern, and I hope Jim will forgive me for that. My fear was slightly different--not that Scarlet was getting an arbitrary price hike, but that it wasn't making the grade as "pro", at least in the <$6000 configuration. I'm all the more excited that it makes the cut as truly professional, and can't wait to get waist-deep in Redcode and HDRx!)
 
Lee Saxon said:
The fact that Red saying "no more prosumer, we're pro only" was interpreted as "Massive price hikes! Scarlet is now $80k" speaks to just how bad Sony et al have been ripping people off over the years. The entire cine market has PTSD.
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Well it also might be RED Trauma part 2.

I've found this whole scenario very amusing just because this is just like the original RED release. There were a lot of people saying that the RED One was going to cost <$10k since they started on DVX User. (My guess I believe was $25k). So when RED announced the $16,500, or whatever the initial announced price was, a lot of people felt like they had been strung along by Jarred's unveiling to the tune of "we wouldn't be announcing it here if it wasn't something you could afford." A lot of DVX owners thought that meant afford to buy and own even without income and felt betrayed by $17,500.

It's Dejavu all over again. So I think there are a lot of people who bought into the $3k-$4k price point and now expect another "Red One" to happen and discover it's actually considerably out of their price range.

Also very amusing is the attacks that REDUsers are now the elitist bastards trying to price out the 'little guy'. After all the fuss directed at the "old fogies" and their film infatuation that one is particularly karmic in these here parts haha.
 
Jannard said:
We have often been accused of "clever marketing"... I learned a long time ago that if you make the best product at the best price, it markets itself. The ones who should be congratulated for marketing expertise (sort of) are the ones that have sold line-skipping and artifacts as if they were features...

Jim
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:001_tt2: = Closest emoticon I could find of a guy twisting a knife in the competition.
 
Lee Saxon said:
The fact that Red saying "no more prosumer, we're pro only" was interpreted as "Massive price hikes! Scarlet is now $80k" speaks to just how bad Sony et al have been ripping people off over the years. The entire cine market has PTSD.
Click to expand...

Either that, or some people are a bit sad to see the idea of a $3,000 camera turn into the idea of a $4,000, then $5,000, and now finally(?) $6,000 camera.

No, I don't think we're being ripped off. The price hikes obviously buy new, amazing features. And no, I also don't think I'm entitled to anything from RED.

Just sad to see that I cannot have a low-end pro camera for 3 or 4 or now even 5 thousand bucks. I wouldn't have used it to make money, so there's no way I could justify such a purchase any time soon. Now I'll be stuck with a line-skipping Canon with a bad rolling shutter artifact, or something similarly inferior.

And sure, I could remain silent about this disappointment. It's my problem after all, just like some people want a $500 laptop from Apple, which Apple isn't interested in making, period.

So why do I keep speaking? To be blunt: because RED isn't Apple. RED holds open discussions, and we get to see how decisions are made. And it feels like we can put in our two cents' worth. And sometimes it even makes a difference.

If you're open about your process, I guess it's only natural that you'll receive feedback.
 
Will any of your new offerings come with a built in ND filter wheel? I know some look down on that, but I'm all for compact. If Im outdoors running handheld I'd love to not be forced to put a matte box on everytime, or shoot at 1/600th.
 
Karl,

I'm breaking my own rule of always posting quotes to these kind of things on this one, but I’m pretty sure they said that the 8x will have the usual 3 ND’s.

I’m sure if I’m wrong I’ll be corrected.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
I've found this whole scenario very amusing just because this is just like the original RED release. There were a lot of people saying that the RED One was going to cost <$10k since they started on DVX User.
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There were also guesses much higher -- I believe I saw a prediction of $150,000.
 
András Puiz said:
:rolleyes5: Yeah, surely I was suggesting that they should sell below cost. Can we spare the strawman arguments, please?

RED is already planning several models. Would an HDRx™-less, slightly dumbed down, entry-level fixed Scarlet really hurt that much?
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It could. It would mean two different sets of electronics, one supporting HDRx and one not. That means two different test and qualification tasks, and we know how much trouble and delays FCC have caused RED for other equipment already.

Different hardware means that you need different firmware. Add another full system test. Integration testing is easier when the whole range have the same basic funtionality and only differ in speed and max image size.

An extra model also adds logistics, production planning, warehousing and service. All are small things, but they add up to extra need for manpower which easily leads to delays.
 
A device is the thing you make, a product is a solution to a customer's problem.

The problem being solved by Scarlet was the low-pro requirement, previously solved by the Panasonic DVX. That is a crowded market in which to compete. It was hard for Scarlet to stand out in that space. That product space is dominated by spec sheets. He who has the most bullet points on his spec sheet wins the sale. By moving up market a bit, Red will be working with customers who know that the spec sheet doesn't tell the whole story.

I'm an ASIC/SOC/control systems guy working on MEMS mirrors and lasers in Redmond, WA and wish I was working on RED.
 
Alexander Ibrahim said:
Hmmm... I think its you Joe.

I don't know if you are still interested in Polaris, but dig out my card and give me a call. You can swing by my home studio. I'll show you a thing or two.


RED is a game changer... but if you have been a player then their prices should cause you no trouble at all.


Now... A 7D shoots 50Mbps 8bit 4:2:0.

Sure its crap compared to a RED... but its better data than cameras that cost a lot more!

You can readily get results with these DSLR cameras- if you know how to shoot!

If it wasn't for the fact that you can get 10bit 4:2:2 out of the live outputs of these cameras they would be completely dead technologically compared to the DSLR video cameras.

If the AF100 had a sensor closer to S35 or S16 it would be far more interesting to a number of users I am sure. I know I am not interested in acquiring 4/3 lenses. Nor am I interested in seeing my 35mm PL lenses all turned into tele lenses.

I don't think any of these low end cinema cameras are much threat to existing prosumer camcorders.


The AF100, and its upcoming relations from the big guys really represent a realization that there actually is a cinema market with different requirements from ENG/Event videographers.
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Alexander, I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.
You hit the nail on the head about the 4/3 sensor. Had the AF100 had
a s16 or S35 sized sensor, it would have made a lot more sense for movie makers regardless of the fact Panasonic is committed to 4/3 chips. That
and the slapped together in a hurry just to get it out the door feeling.
Hence my statement about a V7.


Just checked at the Polaris web site. Glad to see things are moving forward. I'd love to come by your studio and check things out. Has Paul lost even more weight during the course of shooting?

Plus, I did say I was getting a D60 to shoot with, so I was NOT saying you couldn't create excellent images with DSLRs. I've seen enough good stuff to give it a try.

Anyway, I will always think, anyone going to an AF100 because they think the Scarlett is too expensive is making a mistake.:beatdeadhorse5:
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Jim,

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!!! Please keep RED 100% professional. Let the rest of the market define the low end while they fight their way to the bottom.
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+10

This is GREAT news.
I always thought that the original Scarlet S35 pricing didn't quite match it's capabilities. It also doesn't make sense to have a 3k RAW and HDR capable camera compete with a H264 baked-in color DSLR.

You get what you pay for. Even with the price increase, I'm sure that Scarlet will be still way cheaper than any remotely comparable camera on the market.

I just wrapped a shoot with the SI-2k camera this past week....... $12k for the 2/3" sensor alone!
And I'm sorry to say, that camera is a huge pile of ***** in comparison to Red1M ......
 
Tim Nolte said:
As an aside, there's been a sentiment floating around that bothers me. The reaction, "good, they should raise the price just to keep it professional," puzzles me. Call me cynical, but it's hard to see any reasoning behind that besides a desire to keep the cost of entry high to discourage competing professionals. I say let your technique, your experience, and your artistry separate you, not the amount you paid for your gear.
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According to that logic, If you have the skills, 5D is quite sufficient.
So what's the problem?
 
Boy, you RED guys get to fantasize another year over a camera. In that time, I'll be shooting, and not waiting...I mean, RED can't even update a website.
 
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C Mayer said:
Boy, you RED guys get to fantasize another year over a camera. In that time, I'll be shooting, and not waiting...I mean, RED can't even update a website.
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I think many of us already have cameras we shoot with. Personally I have shot with many different video cameras and 16mm film cameras over the years, high and low end.
I have been waiting for around 30 years for some form of reasonably affordable digital motion camera that could truly compete with or outperform 16mm or S16mm film in most important respects. A few more months is not that big a deal to be able to leave low end digital video formats behind for good.
Beyond HD resolution, practical sensitivity equal to the fastest current film stocks (around 500 ISO), exceptional dynamic range, and the creative flexibility of raw acquisition. These things to me are far more important than a large sensor format or wasting precious dollars on something for the interim that I know I won't be happy with from day one. I was shooting a portrait photo of my wife for her website Sunday in full resolution still mode with a Nikon 40dx and finding the DR limits of that camera frustrating for the shot and effect we were both trying to achieve.
 
I'm talking scarlet here. THe camera that was too compete on a prosumer level. 3K for 3K.
 
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