WHICH IS THE BEST USED CAMERA INVESTMENT UNDER $10000 ? -Newbie

[Takor Arrey]

Hi everyone, I have a liking for cinematography and videography, and currently looking to invest under $10,000 in a decent, USED professional camera package, that I can learn how to operate very well and potentially rent out and make some money, or getting small gigs with it.


So my questions regarding the cameras below are as follows:

1) what would be a better buy in your professional opinion based on these camera packages and why?

2) What will be a good step below these camera's in terms of quality and lifetime value?

3) Are these prices reasonable?

4) Which of these will you grab off the shelf?

5) Is there a better option that I am not aware of?



First, I found a Sony F5 package for $6500, ready to shoot with 4K upgrade and viewfinder. Lenses extra. Under 400hrs.

Also, a Canon C300MK 2 package selling for $8000

Next, the Red Epic M X ready to shoot package for $9500 shipped.

Then, Arri Alexa EV / Alexa Classic (with high speed license) selling for about $8500, with memory and about 1300hr. No batteries.

Sony Fs7 MK1 selling for about $6000, with hand grip, viewfinder and batteries. No lens, no memory.

Finally, a PMW F55 package, ready to shoot for $10000.


Your opinions will be greatly appreciated as I am looking to pull the trigger within the coming week. Thanks

Ps, I am new to the forum.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

I don't have a direct answer, but I have a few things to say that may or may not be helpful.

I do not currently own a cinema camera. But if I did, I'd be tempted by two choices:

- Blackmagic
- RED

The reasons are simple: relatively affordable, potent, portable. RED RAW is the closest digital format there is to film. You do need to know what you're doing. And that's exactly the point. If you have experience with RED files, you have a skill that many people don't have. If you can competently use a RED camera, you can easily handle anything else.

Maybe rent an Epic for a week or two first, though. This is something that I intend to do down the line, purely for my own curiosity. I'm not sure if I'll ever need to know how to use a high end cinema camera, but one never knows.

 

[Matt W.]

I'd strongly recommend renting and seeing what works for you.

Also see if your clients want 4k delivery or not and how your computer/NLE handles playback of various formats.

I've worked pretty extensively with most of those cameras (or footage from them) in a professional setting. And I think the reason for that is because there's no simple answer and different productions favor different strengths. I can tell you which is better in a given area, but not overall because they all have strengths and weaknesses.

Also, be cognizant of which forum you're on.

 

[Andreas Gotfredsen]

I where in your position a many years ago. I've used Canon 5D Mark 3 for a long time running on a Glidecam. Many people told me to look at Canon 300 or Sony FS5 but where they the cameras I really wanted ? where they the workflow I really wanted .. no they where not .. what did I want .. I wanted RED because I wanted to capture in raw .

You really in the end have to look at what you really want . What you will be happy with using. Camera bodies loose there value faster then the glass . Someone told me that the glass you use for many many years but during that time you will have used many camera bodies . and there is no perfect camera bodies .

for me I wanted a true cinema camera, I wanted to capture cinema quality images and I wanted to capture in raw ... I also wanted the raw workflow to be easy and just work . And I wanted modularity .. Thats why I went DSMC2

 

[Takor Arrey]

I don't have a direct answer, but I have a few things to say that may or may not be helpful.

I do not currently own a cinema camera. But if I did, I'd be tempted by two choices:

- Blackmagic
- RED

The reasons are simple: relatively affordable, potent, portable. RED RAW is the closest digital format there is to film. You do need to know what you're doing. And that's exactly the point. If you have experience with RED files, you have a skill that many people don't have. If you can competently use a RED camera, you can easily handle anything else.

Maybe rent an Epic for a week or two first, though. This is something that I intend to do down the line, purely for my own curiosity. I'm not sure if I'll ever need to know how to use a high end cinema camera, but one never knows.

Thank you Karim, renting out the cameras sounds like a good idea and seeing that easy rental will cost me a minimum $300-$500 x 6 , that makes it about 1/4 of my budget already. Also, from what I get, RED cameras will fly off the shelf more easily compared to other brands in the cinema realm.

 

[Takor Arrey]

I'd strongly recommend renting and seeing what works for you.

Also see if your clients want 4k delivery or not and how your computer/NLE handles playback of various formats.

I've worked pretty extensively with most of those cameras (or footage from them) in a professional setting. And I think the reason for that is because there's no simple answer and different productions favor different strengths. I can tell you which is better in a given area, but not overall because they all have strengths and weaknesses.

Also, be cognizant of which forum you're on.

Thank you Matt, From working with most the camera that I listed, which one did you find more versatile to shoot with in terms of workflow, cost to carry and form factor?

 

[Michael Tiemann]

Hi everyone, I have a liking for cinematography and videography, and currently looking to invest under $10,000 in a decent, USED professional camera package, that I can learn how to operate very well and potentially rent out and make some money, or getting small gigs with it.

About that...

If you want to learn to operate a camera very well, you need to be on shoots that provide real opportunity to learn and critically evaluate. Which means you need friends who need extra camera operators. You can decide whether you want to make friends with SONY people, Canon people, RED people, etc., but if you are not practicing--and practicing a lot--with real equipment on real shoots, you will most likely become very good at things that might seem interesting to you but which have no real value in the market.

As to rental, it is true that if all somebody wants to do is to evaluate a camera body for a lens test or two, then all you need to offer is a good price for your camera body. But if you look at the rental market, and specifically what people do when they go to a rental house, they browse for all kinds of things that will ultimately make up a package: lens mounts, plates, rods, wires, adapters, flags, media, batteries, etc. And they offer a staging area where customers can actually build and test the package they plan to shoot with to be absolutely sure that (1) they have the right kit, (2) it all works, and (3) any problems can be immediately addressed.
Unless you can supply everything around the camera body (i.e., your "ready to shoot" package fully meets the renter's "ready to shoot" needs), customers are going to look for the one-stop-shop that gives them the peace of mind that they have everything they need, including service/replacements if things go wrong.

My advice would be to prioritize gaining experience by working with others, which will greatly inform (1) how to become a proficient operator, (2) what clients are really looking for in the gear/experience continuum, and (3) what sort of equipment and business model is best for YOU to transform your passion into something that helps pay for itself.

 

[Takor Arrey]

Thank you Michael, your point makes sense. People won't rent if it doesn't work for them. I can DSLR shoot already and would like to move beyond the DSLR realm. No one in my community has a cinema camera and rental houses are not close by. So most just settle for rigged up DSLRs. My big issue is understanding which one of these cameras have you found to be more versatile to shoot with in terms of workflow, cost to carry and form factor?

 

[Michael Tiemann]

Thank you Karim, renting out the cameras sounds like a good idea and seeing that easy rental will cost me a minimum $300-$500 x 6 , that makes it about 1/4 of my budget already. Also, from what I get, RED cameras will fly off the shelf more easily compared to other brands in the cinema realm.

Not at all. ARRI is most rented cinema camera. Canon C200/C300/C500 is probably most-rented run-and-gun. SONY and Panasonic both more popular than RED.

RED is a specialized tool, highly prized for what it can do. But there has to be a sizeable number of people who know RED really well and need to rent because (1) too much of a bother to transport their own, (2) they need a second or third camera to supplement their primary. If those people are not prevalent in your market, you will be limited to renting to the occasional Inquisitor like yourself who just wants to tick that box before they die. It's not a very robust market.

 

[Matt W.]

Thank you Matt, From working with most the camera that I listed, which one did you find more versatile to shoot with in terms of workflow, cost to carry and form factor?

Short answer: Alexa or FS7, but it depends.

95%+ of the work I do is Alexa, but I mostly work in post. Increasingly I'm seeing 3.2k footage more often than 2k or 1080p, which might be a sign that the older Alexas incapable of shooting open gate mode are renting less and less often.

I almost never get FS7 footage, but my friends who are owner/ops or working in corporate seem to love it and I see them around. But it's a different market-corporate and/or reality, I'm guessing, is where that camera lands. Sort of a C300 successor. The Sony image is okay, but I don't love it.

I haven't used an Epic MX since IPP2 was released, but when I was shooting with it, I found it lacking in dynamic range and low light ability compared with its contemporaries and compared with what's available today it's imo a bit long in the tooth. Good image when lit right, though. I worked with the Dragon a few years later and found it to be a lot better, still not great with low light but much better dynamic range and better color. I don't know to what extent it's IPP2 and to what extent it's the new sensor, but whatever it is, I'd try it out for yourself. YMMV. The MX sensor is a generation (or half generation) behind the C300 Mk 1 so it's just fallen prey to time. Arri is in a different category because the ALEV 3 is doing its own thing in the highlights by merging exposures. You're losing resolution with that sensor, especially relative to Red, but even today nothing has the highlight dynamic range the Alexa has and I find it the easiest thing to transition to if you're used to shooting film. Dead in the water if your client wants 4k, though.

The Alexa is also my favorite camera to work with in post, but I don't like how it's battery-hungry and big. I don't like the Alexa Mini form factor from an owner/op perspective, although, ironically, I bought a less capable camera with the same form factor. Repairs are also very expensive and they do go down from time to time. So the Alexa is a tough one. IMO nothing gets close to it in terms of dynamic range and tonality, but you might be working with a 2k camera in a 4k market and have expensive repairs and a camera that's a pain to operate without an assistant. I do like the Amira form factor, but the price remains high.

In LA I see a lot of Reds and they would be hard to rent out imo. In a smaller market, everyone might want one if you buy it. Again, I think the newer sensors are significantly ahead of the MX. Nothing wrong with it, but like the Alexas that only shoot 2k, the rental market might be saturated with them.

The Sonys are just kind of boring and okay imo, but SLOG 3 can produce a nice image.

I really like the image from the Varicam LT and the price point and that it has true 4k and dual ISO, but haven't shot with that camera, just worked with it in post and researched buying one. And the EVF brings it to $15k new.

I strongly recommend renting locally. It'll give you an idea of your competition, too.

 

[Savannah Miller]

Hi everyone, I have a liking for cinematography and videography, and currently looking to invest under $10,000 in a decent, USED professional camera package, that I can learn how to operate very well and potentially rent out and make some money, or getting small gigs with it.


So my questions regarding the cameras below are as follows:

1) what would be a better buy in your professional opinion based on these camera packages and why?

2) What will be a good step below these camera's in terms of quality and lifetime value?

3) Are these prices reasonable?

4) Which of these will you grab off the shelf?

5) Is there a better option that I am not aware of?



First, I found a Sony F5 package for $6500, ready to shoot with 4K upgrade and viewfinder. Lenses extra. Under 400hrs.

Also, a Canon C300MK 2 package selling for $8000

Next, the Red Epic M X ready to shoot package for $9500 shipped.

Then, Arri Alexa EV / Alexa Classic (with high speed license) selling for about $8500, with memory and about 1300hr. No batteries.

Sony Fs7 MK1 selling for about $6000, with hand grip, viewfinder and batteries. No lens, no memory.

Finally, a PMW F55 package, ready to shoot for $10000.


Your opinions will be greatly appreciated as I am looking to pull the trigger within the coming week. Thanks

Ps, I am new to the forum.

RED Epic MX is a waste of money. It's an old, noisy, sensor, and there's nothing that it does than something like a Blackmagic 6K would not do better.

C300 Mk II is probably cheaper to shoot overall due to more variety of codecs, autofocus, etc.

 

[M Harvey]

If you want to learn to operate a camera very well, you need to be on shoots that provide real opportunity to learn and critically evaluate.

I'm going to second what Michael says-- I think that gaining experience with a good team is the best way to develop skills. You can watch lots of videos on how to light an interview or build a DIY dolly, but often what makes someone good is knowing how to quickly address a task/problem in a dynamic environment, and knowing how to work as part of a team.
Of course, lots of people come up making skateboard videos with their friends or whatever, and there's nothing wrong with that-- it's just that you may be a little lost on a professional set accomplishing something new, where it's not about creative instinct but correct execution.

And it really does help to work with these various cameras in professional settings, as it helps you understand what the differences actually are. I'd hands-down choose the used Alexa if it were just about the image; after some AC work on Alexa shoots, however, I'd pass on the models available for under $10k, because I think you need at least a small crew to shoot with anything but the Mini or the Amira. You also need to spend some real money on a tripod and batteries and things like that. (I'd also agree that you want the open gate and plus models, if rental is going to be important.)

As for camera choice, I myself went back and forth some years back before purchasing a Sony FS7 over a Scarlet MX. The Sony has its quirks, but you can shoot with it virtually out of the box, the few accessories you do need are much cheaper, and it's a standard in corporate and doc work. And I think the Sony image in s-log3 is great. (For higher end narrative or commercial stuff, a RED or Alexa rental makes sense-- but I might consider owning certain Blackmagic cameras for narrative.) The FS7 has been a solid choice as an owner-operator camera: easy to use with no special accessories on everything from a web series with a small crew to doc-style event coverage, A-camera on interviews with an A73 B-cam to B-Cam on interviews with an Alexa as A-cam.

If I were in your shoes, I'd probably set aside banking on rental income unless you want to do the research to determine what will work in your market. Instead, maybe I'd think about what I hope to get out of a "next level" camera: an opportunity to work in a log format or a raw codec? A better form factor for working in documentary? An image that I like better for narrative work? Something that lets me use PL-mount lenses? A brand name that I hope will help me get gigs-- which I will base on my research about the kind of gigs available in my marketplace?

The answer might be to get a Blackmagic that will let me work in log/raw formats, and hang onto the rest of the cash until I've spent some time as part of a crew.

 

[Timothy Jones]

I would wait a couple months see what Komodo looks like .

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I’m thinking a Komodo all kitted out in a basic ready to shoot package with an RF lens or two could be under $10K. That said, the use market has not been kind to sellers’ camera values lately and good cameras are selling for super cheap. There could potentially be a lot of value had by picking up a used something or other. Really does not matter which brand of camera we’re talking about, they’ve all taken a huge hit over the past year or so.

 

[Ash Worth]

I'm not sure a Komodo will be available to the public for at least another year based on RED's track record.

The question is what are you going to use the camera for? No budget, no distribution coming of age narratives or do you want to pick up actual work?

Sony or Canon would both work for the latter, I'd forget about earning money from rentals unless you can partner with a rental house to handle logisitics and insurance.

Given your situation though I'd start working as a PA to get some experience for a few years and buy a Blackmagic Pocket 3/4 and accessories to do personal work and learn the craft. Invest the money in education not gear, volunteer if you have to on shoots even if you have to drive hours and stay in motel.

 

[Nick Morrison]

The best one is the one you're going to use.

 

[Allen Deckard]

Takor,

1) I'd advise to get a thorough understanding which accessories you need in general to handle all or most situations on-set and then which accessories you prefer based on your own shooting style (which you may not have yet ?).

AKS can get very expensive (same or more than the basic camera package) and sometimes hard to track down when looking on the used market. Media is one important aspect, ensure you understand the dependencies you create for yourself when pulling the trigger to go with one specific camera.

2) If you're looking to learn, then a DSLR is cheap and will teach you plenty as you need to be very careful (it's a very "strict" tool), for a more "professional" camera (more rez, RAW, better DR, better color science) there's plenty of options and don't forget you will scrape at least 25% more out if you learn to shoot the camera specifically to it's needs. They're all different with different needs. The MX looked great in some shows (when handled properly), it looked bad in many others.

3) If you consider to rent out you need to research the market in your specific area.

Hope this helps.

AD

 

[Matt W.]

The best one is the one you're going to use.

Unless your primary goal is to rent.

I've stopped buying stuff with the hope of renting it out. Turns out what I want isn't necessarily what others do.

 

[Misha Engel]

When you already have EF glass, the BMPCC6k is a good way to go. Fully rigged (extra screen, 3 battery grips, some USB-SSD's, Cage, mic, ND-filters, etc..) for around $6k. You also get a free copy of Davinci Resolve Studio with the camera. All other options that shoot 5k+ RAW will cost you a lot more. With the $4k you saved you can get a nice zoom lens or a workstation for editing/color gradeding. It's real money...

 

[Takor Arrey]

Takor,

1) I'd advise to get a thorough understanding which accessories you need in general to handle all or most situations on-set and then which accessories you prefer based on your own shooting style (which you may not have yet ?).

AKS can get very expensive (same or more than the basic camera package) and sometimes hard to track down when looking on the used market. Media is one important aspect, ensure you understand the dependencies you create for yourself when pulling the trigger to go with one specific camera.

2) If you're looking to learn, then a DSLR is cheap and will teach you plenty as you need to be very careful (it's a very "strict" tool), for a more "professional" camera (more rez, RAW, better DR, better color science) there's plenty of options and don't forget you will scrape at least 25% more out if you learn to shoot the camera specifically to it's needs. They're all different with different needs. The MX looked great in some shows (when handled properly), it looked bad in many others.

3) If you consider to rent out you need to research the market in your specific area.

Hope this helps.

AD

Thanks Allen, it makes sense to understand the needed accessories for whatever camera I will choose. I am not looking to pick-up narrative work or productions with big budgets and distribution. I will most likely be shooting educational content and documentary type one man projects. The rental is just so that I can at least recoup some of my expenses. The below package would rent for about $550 a day in my area.

Mind you that I have been on sets and worked on small sets with some complex camera setups. I am only looking too be able to make a decent living with proper tools that can shoot decent slow motion, deliver above average picture quality and manageable by one person.

I have been looking at the Sony PMW F5/F55. I Used the BMPC before and unfortunately I can't handle the unnecessary weight of the UMP. The RED camera's are a whole different ball game for me and.

I am considering getting a fully rigged F5 for about $6500 with the R5 recorder. Then, either get the FUJINON MK 18-55 T/2.9 and MK50-135mm T2.9 Cine Lens combination, or, ZEISS LWZ.3 21-100mm/T2.9-3.9 T*. This will be a good low profile package. My second lens option is the Schneider Optics FF Primes.