When will new Weapon (magnesium) orders be filled?

[Phil Holland]

No worries Darren. Didn't take it really as a knock at me. Thanks for the kind words.

RED's very different from the ground up when it comes to camera development. The things we've seen thus far that have been shot on the prototype Weapons have all been informative both to us as RED owners and to RED as a camera developer/manufacturer. This can influence the camera's hardware and software for the better. Often prototypes have quirks, missing bits, custom builds, etc...... Sometimes that's even just to explore adding features or stress testing existing concepts.

It's imperative to work those quirks out before mass production and camera release occurs, because if something is missed it's hard (or extremely expensive) to recover from for both the camera owner and the camera manufacturer.

As far as I know the first Weapon upgrades occur starting in July 2015 and it looks like everything is on track from everything I've seen since NAB. Hard shipping dates and upgrade dates are always tricky because RED needs to "process" those upgrades and build those bodies plus work their way down the order/upgrade line. They aren't the type of camera company that announces a product, has a prototype perhaps, then goes dark, and then magically 10,000 units are boxed and shelved waiting for us. Also, it's not exactly that price point where that's possible really.

I don't envy the situation RED is in when new tech comes out. Just the concept of the upgrade process alone each time around requires new information management, tech, and procedures to be created. Licensing, documentation, training, etc.... Every camera has to also be fully tested before it's sent out. There's an army of RED employees working on this stuff around the clock to hammer everything down as much as possible before the "release storm" occurs. It's actually one of the very positive things about RED really.

 

[M.Halsell]

To all applicable, Its a bit uncouth to take cheap shots at Phil just because it seems he's the outward facing conduit to RED. Any frustration should be vented maturely and accurately. Its very disingenuous and frankly discourages people who possibly have legitimate input or insight from posting. Phil has been been pretty gracious with his time and does an amazing job with information sharing.

Bad behavior from RED? Leopard cant change its stripes. The Weapon upgrade will cycle thru successfully, just like all upgrade periods before. Its the RED way, for better or for worse. The thread should really stay on topic.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

No worries Darren. Didn't take it really as a knock at me. Thanks for the kind words.

RED's very different from the ground up when it comes to camera development. The things we've seen thus far that have been shot on the prototype Weapons have all been informative both to us as RED owners and to RED as a camera developer/manufacturer. This can influence the camera's hardware and software for the better. Often prototypes have quirks, missing bits, custom builds, etc...... Sometimes that's even just to explore adding features or stress testing existing concepts.

It's imperative to work those quirks out before mass production and camera release occurs, because if something is missed it's hard (or extremely expensive) to recover from for both the camera owner and the camera manufacturer.

As far as I know the first Weapon upgrades occur starting in July 2015 and it looks like everything is on track from everything I've seen since NAB. Hard shipping dates and upgrade dates are always tricky because RED needs to "process" those upgrades and build those bodies plus work their way down the order/upgrade line. They aren't the type of camera company that announces a product, has a prototype perhaps, then goes dark, and then magically 10,000 units are boxed and shelved waiting for us. Also, it's not exactly that price point where that's possible really.

I don't envy the situation RED is in when new tech comes out. Just the concept of the upgrade process alone each time around requires new information management, tech, and procedures to be created. Licensing, documentation, training, etc.... Every camera has to also be fully tested before it's sent out. There's an army of RED employees working on this stuff around the clock to hammer everything down as much as possible before the "release storm" occurs. It's actually one of the very positive things about RED really.

Hello Phil,

I'm 100% with you on that. The time, back in 2008, where we were in the hundreds beta testing for RED has long go. It's normal, RED has to choose the brave ones close to them to have accurate and fast feedback. Though, I'm a bit sad that those pioneering times have gone, but it's really for the best. Now I'm still wondering when you'll get your Weapon, so I can set my delivery date! ;-)

Pat

 

[Elsie N]

My name's been brought up in this thread and I want to expand a bit on what Patrick is talking about.

When Epic Dragon was upcoming prior to release it's no secret that I was fortunate (thank you again Jarred) to have access to a few prototypes of the camera several months before the "official release" and eventually took delivery of my Epic Dragon in December 2013.

In that span of time between prototypes and the final shipping brain lots happened. Stress tests were shot, lens coverage tests happened, color science "evolved", and files were pushed around aggressively in an effort to try and "break" the image. All of this take a fair bit of time and effort, but it benefits us as RED shooters and RED as a camera manufacturer.

Most of the camera and lens tests I've done in the last several years has been made publicly available here on REDuser. Data Sheets, tips, charts, graphics, etc..... Also, it helps RED out when a camera is in development to get it into the hands of somebody like me who has a "knack" for breaking things as well as hitting a few snags on early builds. It helps make our cameras better. For the work and clients I deal with I need to test things fairly intimately to "know" what the heck is going on. This was particularly true when it came to Interchangeable OLPF tests because that concept was so very scary initially, but has truly unlocked creative and technical doors that otherwise couldn't be explored.

Weapon right now is being hammered, folded, forged, and formed into an insanely tiny fully fledged motion picture production camera with some very forward thinking technology stuffed into it's tiny skull. The best news in this particular process is that Weapon is a body upgrade and the Dragon sensor development has occurred, so those major hurdles no longer need to be conquered. What is happening is Weapon is significantly more powerful than the Epic and Scarlet body's internal hardware (we are talking a few hardware generation advances) and that is allowing Dragon to fly a bit higher to improve image quality slightly due to some of the improvements that can be made "under the hood". Then there's the internal brain processing power and features coming along like ProRes, LUTs, WiFi, and Timecode related things. Then also the newer handy things like the cableless/bolt-on connections, electronically detected OLPFs, front facing scratch mics, newer thermal management/ventilation placement, etc.

It's certainly going to take a bit to get all of that new internal tech up to snuff, but there's literally people at RED working around the clock to make that happen. I think you'll see more and perhaps the first shipping Weapons relatively soon if things are on track for July/late July still. Hopefully Carbon Fiber and Magnesium bodies happening fairly closely together, though I think you'll see some CF love early on as Jarred mentioned some of the first Weapons will be the Forged Carbon Fiber models. I'm really curious when we'll see 8K landing as well, but those are my interests. The other bit there is ET is cranking away at putting together the V-Lock and Gold-Lock Battery Plates and a few other accessories for launch. Those Battery Plates will be an essential part of getting those cameras rigged up and used on productions.

Hello Phil,

I'm 100% with you on that. The time, back in 2008, where we were in the hundreds beta testing for RED has long go. It's normal, RED has to choose the brave ones close to them to have accurate and fast feedback. Though, I'm a bit sad that those pioneering times have gone, but it's really for the best. Now I'm still wondering when you'll get your Weapon, so I can set my delivery date! ;-)

Pat

Heh, heh... I saw your smiley face and figure you are joking. But for those who don't know you are joking, I point to Phil's camera number 5232 in his signature.

It appears he may get to "use" prototypes, but if things hold true to form, he'll be in line just like the rest of us.

 

[Johnny Friday]

To all applicable, Its a bit uncouth to take cheap shots at Phil just because it seems he's the outward facing conduit to RED. Any frustration should be vented maturely and accurately. Its very disingenuous and frankly discourages people who possibly have legitimate input or insight from posting. Phil has been been pretty gracious with his time and does an amazing job with information sharing.

Bad behavior from RED? Leopard cant change its stripes. The Weapon upgrade will cycle thru successfully, just like all upgrade periods before. Its the RED way, for better or for worse. The thread should really stay on topic.

.....you left yourself wide open here...but doesn't a leopard have spots? Unless you mean a leopard shark...they kind of have stripes.

 

[Elsie N]

.....you left yourself wide open here...but doesn't a leopard have spots? Unless you mean a leopard shark...they kind of have stripes.

Is that leopard pissed? That leopard looks pissed.

 

[M.Halsell]

Tongue and cheek

 

[Etienne Perrin]

As far as I know the first Weapon upgrades occur starting in July 2015 and it looks like everything is on track from everything I've seen since NAB.

Therefore they are sending the CF upgrades first and the new CF (new buyers) after, am I right?

 

[Gene Sung]

As a potential new / non-upgrade customer, I just hope the Mag Weapon comes sooner that later (hopefully by years end). I'm kind of between an Alexa Mini and a Mag Weapon. Kind of leaning towards a Weapon because it's $10K less, has upgrades, more features and the Mini is a huge pain to rig. But that Alexa color / skintones is very alluring.

While the CF Weapon and 8K Weapon are show stoppers, I'm pretty certain the Mag Weapon is Red's bread and butter, so please come out with it sooner than later. At this point even with the $10K price difference between the Mini and the Mag Weapon, it's coming down to which one is available sooner. The Mini is technically shipping, but Arri has said end of year before they are available in any number. I hope the same for Weapon.

 

[Phil Holland]

Therefore they are sending the CF upgrades first and the new CF (new buyers) after, am I right?

The only thing I'm "sure of" is this:

Upgrade Order Fullfilment

Serial Number is not a factor in the Weapon upgrade. Fulfillment will be based on the camera type you are trading in, meaning this priority:

1. Carbon Dragon
2. Epic-M Dragon
3. Epic-X Dragon
4. Scarlet Dragon

Then within each group it will be by date and time stamp of your order placed.

New Carbon Fiber Weapons can be purchased/pre-ordered. RED mentioned this is more or less like the Carbon Epic Dragon where it's a separate line. Where new orders lands is likely also based on when the order was placed. Don't know if that happens before, after, or during the upgrades officially. Though I imagine its likely going to happen "during" the upgrades as it's a simpler process.

 

[Stacey Spears]

The only thing I'm "sure of" is this:

Wonder how 8k sensor upgrades will go. Hopefully timestamp of order.

What I wonder is does the above list apply to orders places today. e.g. Lets say you had an EPIC-M and placed your upgrade order at NAB. then someone with a CF Dragon decides to place their upgrade order today, a couple of months later, do they still get upgraded ahead of you? This is where things get complicated.

Don't know if that happens before, after, or during the upgrades officially. Though I imagine its likely going to happen "during" the upgrades as it's a simpler process.

This has been an issue for every company upgrading. Red is one of the few who have held out new orders while upgrading. I completely understand if they need to sell new cameras while upgrading existing. Its cash flow. Red can't control when people send in their cameras for upgrade, which makes it difficult for them.

 

[Gene Sung]

This has been an issue for every company upgrading. Red is one of the few who have held out new orders while upgrading. I completely understand if they need to sell new cameras while upgrading existing. Its cash flow. Red can't control when people send in their cameras for upgrade, which makes it difficult for them.

That'd be great if they brought new Mag Weapon customers into the fold while upgrading current to expand their new customer base.

I think it's amazing that Red announces something new more often than others, but that has to be rough on existing camera sales. I probably would have a bought a new Dragon, but the moment Weapon was announced many potential new customers just went into wait-and-see mode. To buy a Dragon in the last few months or now, then to upgrade to Weapon in the near future is financially brutal.

 

[Stacey Spears]

That'd be great if they brought new Mag Weapon customers into the fold while upgrading current to expand their new customer base.

They are already taking deposits for new CF Weapons, so it would probably be them sold along side upgrades.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

Reduser has kinda become a morgue lately. They must be hard at work on something, or a few things...I'd expect some big news any time now.

 

[ignition]

Reduser has kinda become a morgue lately. They must be hard at work on something, or a few things...I'd expect some big news any time now.

morgue? No lack of user engagement, assume you mean the lack of official RED responses to most threads? There seems enough intel flying off the back of NAB to oil the wheels, and whilst we all love big news I think Weapon and the 8K sensor are highly ambitious so I'd rather think they're just working on making these two next leaps live up to expectations in performance and reliability, rather than revealing more aces up sleeves.

And that's entirely not to say I love aces up sleeves btw but the Weapon/8K road map is pretty much everything I hoped for in the next 9-12 months and it's the reliability/performance/extensible ecosystem (POGO etc.) I'd most like to see pushed to the limits to compliment the core advancements.

 

[Michael Gyori]

My name's been brought up in this thread and I want to expand a bit on what Patrick is talking about.

When Epic Dragon was upcoming prior to release it's no secret that I was fortunate (thank you again Jarred) to have access to a few prototypes of the camera several months before the "official release" and eventually took delivery of my Epic Dragon in December 2013.

In that span of time between prototypes and the final shipping brain lots happened. Stress tests were shot, lens coverage tests happened, color science "evolved", and files were pushed around aggressively in an effort to try and "break" the image. All of this take a fair bit of time and effort, but it benefits us as RED shooters and RED as a camera manufacturer.

Most of the camera and lens tests I've done in the last several years has been made publicly available here on REDuser. Data Sheets, tips, charts, graphics, etc..... Also, it helps RED out when a camera is in development to get it into the hands of somebody like me who has a "knack" for breaking things as well as hitting a few snags on early builds. It helps make our cameras better. For the work and clients I deal with I need to test things fairly intimately to "know" what the heck is going on. This was particularly true when it came to Interchangeable OLPF tests because that concept was so very scary initially, but has truly unlocked creative and technical doors that otherwise couldn't be explored.

Weapon right now is being hammered, folded, forged, and formed into an insanely tiny fully fledged motion picture production camera with some very forward thinking technology stuffed into it's tiny skull. The best news in this particular process is that Weapon is a body upgrade and the Dragon sensor development has occurred, so those major hurdles no longer need to be conquered. What is happening is Weapon is significantly more powerful than the Epic and Scarlet body's internal hardware (we are talking a few hardware generation advances) and that is allowing Dragon to fly a bit higher to improve image quality slightly due to some of the improvements that can be made "under the hood". Then there's the internal brain processing power and features coming along like ProRes, LUTs, WiFi, and Timecode related things. Then also the newer handy things like the cableless/bolt-on connections, electronically detected OLPFs, front facing scratch mics, newer thermal management/ventilation placement, etc.

It's certainly going to take a bit to get all of that new internal tech up to snuff, but there's literally people at RED working around the clock to make that happen. I think you'll see more and perhaps the first shipping Weapons relatively soon if things are on track for July/late July still. Hopefully Carbon Fiber and Magnesium bodies happening fairly closely together, though I think you'll see some CF love early on as Jarred mentioned some of the first Weapons will be the Forged Carbon Fiber models. I'm really curious when we'll see 8K landing as well, but those are my interests. The other bit there is ET is cranking away at putting together the V-Lock and Gold-Lock Battery Plates and a few other accessories for launch. Those Battery Plates will be an essential part of getting those cameras rigged up and used on productions.

Definitely appreciate Phil's contributions on this forum. In his post he did mention something that leads to one disappointment I have with Weapon. Phil mentions above that the internal hardware in the Weapon is a few generations beyond the Dragon internal hardware. Why then are there no framerate improvements at any resolution for the Weapon? If the internal boards are beefier, why not 150fps at 6k? 300fps at 5k? Is this a sensor limitation?

 

[Stacey Spears]

Why then are there no framerate improvements at any resolution for the Weapon? If the internal boards are beefier, why not 150fps at 6k? 300fps at 5k? Is this a sensor limitation?

That is a limitation of the Dragon sensor. You will need to wait for the next gen sensor to see big changes in the framerate. Remember, the roadmap is body -> sensor -> body -> sensor... Weapon is a body upgrade.

 

[Antony Newman]

Michael,

The Dragon sensor technology includes a block of logic to Read and Reset the sensor.

That technology underpins the 6k and 8k Dragon sensors that will be used in the Weapon this year.

If the raster rate (line rate) remains the same - the 8k framerate will reduce proportionally (more horizontal lines in each frame).


The Weapon will be able to write 50% more data for this same line rate (which means significantly better image quality / lower compression ratios) at high speed.


My speculation would be that Next generation Sensor will likely support both high speed & Require an update to the SSD to support significantly higher write speeds.

AJ

Edit : Stacey beat me to it