When will new Weapon (magnesium) orders be filled?

[benhuddleston]

Does anyone know the latest estimates for the wait time on new Weapon orders? I'm working with a company that wants to buy two packages. We're starting filming this summer, so we may have to buy Dragons instead....

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Does anyone know the latest estimates for the wait time on new Weapon orders? I'm working with a company that wants to buy two packages. We're starting filming this summer, so we may have to buy Dragons instead....

You mean Epics

Pat

I think "common" users will get theirs by end of year.

 

[benhuddleston]

Yes, you're right. I meant Epic Dragons instead.

 

[Elsie N]

I'm only guessing here, but maybe when they have fulfilled all the new Carbon Fiber Weapon orders and built up a stock of those. I could see them turning that line to making Mag Weapons for outright sale, but that is pure speculation. And if I'm right, well past the time you will need cameras. I think Epic Dragons it is, for you.

The earliest Weapons will be the formed Carbon Weapons and those could be August before being made and shipped.

 

[ignition]

+1, I expect rather pragmatically for CF Weapon upgrading pathway seems more like August->October and Mg following thereafter. But that's pure personal speculation ... I'd certainly love some vague formal response from RED on what the upgrade pathway timing is looking like right now, given NAB discounts are over, volumes are in, and manufacturing throughput for CF Weapon / Mg Weapon is (hopefully by now) a fairly certain known..

 

[Patrick Tresch]

No News yet from the usual suspects so I suppose it's going to last a bit longer than expected. Alexa mini could have forced them to announce something not yet finished for NAB. Thus the delay.

 

[Phil Holland]

No News yet from the usual suspects so I suppose it's going to last a bit longer than expected. Alexa mini could have forced them to announce something not yet finished for NAB. Thus the delay.

If you think RED hasn't been doing R&D prior the Mini announcement, at a minimum a year before, you'd be crazy.

Weapon is coming along. I saw Jarred with his Weapon 8K Dragon yesterday on the RSH lot and that is a functioning, working camera.

Currently there are a few "special" Carbon Fiber Weapon 6K Dragon bodies out there working on productions. In a similar way that David Fincher and crew were shooting Gone Girl with special Dragons back then.


The general plan I believe is still in tact. Carbon Fiber Weapon 6K Dragon upgrades begin July-ish.

 

[Etienne Perrin]

The bomb squad said they will start shipping the first Weapons at around the end of July. I think they will send first the upgrades.

And as Phil said, there are already a few CF Weapon on working productions, but I don't know if it's for testing or if the product is definitely finished.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Lol Phil.
I'm not talking about r&d but when you (being part of the usual suspects) get your weapon we still will have to wait 4+ months. So please tell us when you get yours so that we know.

Pat

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

Lol Phil.
I'm not talking about r&d but when you (being part of the usual suspects) get your weapon we still will have to wait 4+ months. So please tell us when you get yours so that we know.

Pat

My guess is 2 months after Phil gets his.

 

[ignition]

My guess is 2 months after Phil gets his.

It does admittedly feel a bit weird to plow money into a promise and spend a few months observing the promising fruits of that investment second hand through some privileged few with their hands on the merchandise.

At any rate, to be honest Phil & RED - "special" CF weapon cameras really doesn't mean much to me. I appreciate your circle of road test enthusiasts who get the gear and create the aspirational filmmaking hype that keep us interested.

But at the same time, I do object to this three ringed circus on a more commercially orientated ground; that is, as a RED adopter from 2006, I'm a little tired of pulling tooth and nail to fund an R&D pipeline through future upgrades. I appreciate the need to stay current across all technology in my business; the exception in terms of scale and pre-funding for future gain resides solely with RED.

I'm on the Weapon CF upgrade path and making a lot of concessions now to find the extra $29k USD to meet the upgrade - even though I've been given no idea when that might be. RED & Phil citing "special" CF weapons in production in mysterious circumstances is actually useless in me gauging how much I cripple my business to reserve cash for this upgrade in any particular timeframe.

And, of course, neither RED, Phil, or any other RED advocate has any idea what the commercial commitment ("dollars on the line") commitment timeframe is. But they have plenty of mystical news about CF weapons already out there. Like UFO's.

Honestly and admittedly.. for the first time in 9 years, I'm also starting to reflect on the commercial realities of the RED bandwagon, the uncertainty of timing and financial commitment on the upgrade pathway, and the novelty of RED's chosen few and this whole "prototype" bullshit bandstanding their achievements on prototypes I've already paid for is kind of wearing off on me in the face of commercial realities in cash tied up in future promises.

Sorry for being so honest. I love the RED mission and I've been a passionate follower, advocate and financial investor since the beginning.

But I am honestly now struggling to finance my love of RED by funding future and uncertain equipment acquisitions simply through trade show paranoia and media hype, only to wait months on end for certainty whilst pacifying my commercial pain and cashflow constraints.. simply by remaining naive and in awe of what RED's chosen darlings are doing with prototypes of the camera I've already paid something towards. It's all becoming a little bittersweet to me, to be honest.

 

[Elsie N]

It does admittedly feel a bit weird to plow money into a promise and spend a few months observing the promising fruits of that investment second hand through some privileged few with their hands on the merchandise.

At any rate, to be honest Phil & RED - "special" CF weapon cameras really doesn't mean much to me. I appreciate your circle of road test enthusiasts who get the gear and create the aspirational filmmaking hype that keep us interested.

But at the same time, I do object to this three ringed circus on a more commercially orientated ground; that is, as a RED adopter from 2006, I'm a little tired of pulling tooth and nail to fund an R&D pipeline through future upgrades. I appreciate the need to stay current across all technology in my business; the exception in terms of scale and pre-funding for future gain resides solely with RED.

I'm on the Weapon CF upgrade path and making a lot of concessions now to find the extra $29k USD to meet the upgrade - even though I've been given no idea when that might be. RED & Phil citing "special" CF weapons in production in mysterious circumstances is actually useless in me gauging how much I cripple my business to reserve cash for this upgrade in any particular timeframe.

And, of course, neither RED, Phil, or any other RED advocate has any idea what the commercial commitment ("dollars on the line") commitment timeframe is. But they have plenty of mystical news about CF weapons already out there. Like UFO's.

Honestly and admittedly.. for the first time in 9 years, I'm also starting to reflect on the commercial realities of the RED bandwagon, the uncertainty of timing and financial commitment on the upgrade pathway, and the novelty of RED's chosen few and this whole "prototype" bullshit bandstanding their achievements on prototypes I've already paid for is kind of wearing off on me in the face of commercial realities in cash tied up in future promises.

Sorry for being so honest. I love the RED mission and I've been a passionate follower, advocate and financial investor since the beginning.

But I am honestly now struggling to finance my love of RED by funding future and uncertain equipment acquisitions simply through trade show paranoia and media hype, only to wait months on end for certainty whilst pacifying my commercial pain and cashflow constraints.. simply by remaining naive and in awe of what RED's chosen darlings are doing with prototypes of the camera I've already paid something towards. It's all becoming a little bittersweet to me, to be honest.

I commiserate with you on both the financial and the waiting, but I disagree with you on the prototypes being put to use by trusted professionals (thinking of them as guinea pigs may help in accepting the process '-) They identify actual-practices bugs that in-house testing may not have uncovered.

I've always used my RED cameras, from the R-1s through the Dragons, in a non-stressful mode. That is, I seldom use the bells and whistles and instead use the cameras in what I consider to be their quantum state of providing images... ETTR. Because of that fact alone I could never be one of the "guinea pigs" since the majority of RED camera owners have a much more complex idea of what the quantum state of RED cameras are.

You may be one of that majority and feel you can handle and identify any shortcomings a prototype may have. But there are just so many prototypes available and being able to say our Weapons were used on X-Big Budget production adds cache to our cameras that just can't be bought.

I think pre-releasing the cameras well before delivery is a much better alternative for us who have to get our finances in order than just exploding on the scene with a new camera that can be bought up by those with ready cash.

If you think about it, you and I have a place in line that puts us far ahead of many others, just because we were informed what the cost and process would be and were able to put down a deposit to hold that place.

If RED had sprung the Weapon on us when ready for distribution, I would have been tail-end Charlie for getting one.

 

[Jason Comparetto]

It is a difficult pill to swallow at times, but really the way RED is doing it is probably the only way to keep balance between everything.

If they release the news too late, too many orders will have been lost to Alexa Mini.

If they release the information too soon, too many will be disappointed at late shipment dates.

If none of the "chosen few" get the cameras in their hands first, no big names will have used the cameras and not as many clients will be on board with using the new technology.

If too many end users get the cameras in their hands too soon, then bugs could crop up and spoil the show for everyone.

These are just a few of the things that RED has to keep in balance, and its never simple because so much of it factors on the future. Nobody can predict the future, so they are just doing the best they can with the information they have available to them at the moment.

In instances like these, I try to let the market decide if its worth it or not. If the investment upfront with unclear delivery dates is not worth it, then its best to walk away. However, if you are in a position to take a chance, RED has an excellent track record of pleasing those who wait for it.

 

[Kyle Dones]

RED has an excellent track record of pleasing those who wait for it.

Yes they do. Its not RED responsibility to keep any ones business above water. That's our hustle, that's on us. And I'm grateful to be able to have that responsibility…I'd rather be in the field on the grimiest streets, shooting, than testing cameras in a lab or some 9-5…I'll continue to wait with a smile on my face…that being said, send me a prototype. For real.

 

[PatrickFaith]

I commiserate with you on both the financial and the waiting, but I disagree with you on the prototypes being put to use by trusted professionals (thinking of them as guinea pigs may help in accepting the process '-) They identify actual-practices bugs that in-house testing may not have uncovered.

I've always used my RED cameras, from the R-1s through the Dragons, in a non-stressful mode. That is, I seldom use the bells and whistles and instead use the cameras in what I consider to be their quantum state of providing images... ETTR. Because of that fact alone I could never be one of the "guinea pigs" since the majority of RED camera owners have a much more complex idea of what the quantum state of RED cameras are.

You may be one of that majority and feel you can handle and identify any shortcomings a prototype may have. But there are just so many prototypes available and being able to say our Weapons were used on X-Big Budget production adds cache to our cameras that just can't be bought.

I think pre-releasing the cameras well before delivery is a much better alternative for us who have to get our finances in order than just exploding on the scene with a new camera that can be bought up by those with ready cash.

If you think about it, you and I have a place in line that puts us far ahead of many others, just because we were informed what the cost and process would be and were able to put down a deposit to hold that place.

If RED had sprung the Weapon on us when ready for distribution, I would have been tail-end Charlie for getting one.

100%. My view is I'm riding on the back of major experts. I want them to have the "alpha" version of the camera for at least 90 days before it's shipped. I do not want owner operators getting the camera and renting it out without proper support, hearing all sorts of incompetent crap, while RED is working through a normal development process.

 

[Phil Holland]

My name's been brought up in this thread and I want to expand a bit on what Patrick is talking about.

When Epic Dragon was upcoming prior to release it's no secret that I was fortunate (thank you again Jarred) to have access to a few prototypes of the camera several months before the "official release" and eventually took delivery of my Epic Dragon in December 2013.

In that span of time between prototypes and the final shipping brain lots happened. Stress tests were shot, lens coverage tests happened, color science "evolved", and files were pushed around aggressively in an effort to try and "break" the image. All of this take a fair bit of time and effort, but it benefits us as RED shooters and RED as a camera manufacturer.

Most of the camera and lens tests I've done in the last several years has been made publicly available here on REDuser. Data Sheets, tips, charts, graphics, etc..... Also, it helps RED out when a camera is in development to get it into the hands of somebody like me who has a "knack" for breaking things as well as hitting a few snags on early builds. It helps make our cameras better. For the work and clients I deal with I need to test things fairly intimately to "know" what the heck is going on. This was particularly true when it came to Interchangeable OLPF tests because that concept was so very scary initially, but has truly unlocked creative and technical doors that otherwise couldn't be explored.

Weapon right now is being hammered, folded, forged, and formed into an insanely tiny fully fledged motion picture production camera with some very forward thinking technology stuffed into it's tiny skull. The best news in this particular process is that Weapon is a body upgrade and the Dragon sensor development has occurred, so those major hurdles no longer need to be conquered. What is happening is Weapon is significantly more powerful than the Epic and Scarlet body's internal hardware (we are talking a few hardware generation advances) and that is allowing Dragon to fly a bit higher to improve image quality slightly due to some of the improvements that can be made "under the hood". Then there's the internal brain processing power and features coming along like ProRes, LUTs, WiFi, and Timecode related things. Then also the newer handy things like the cableless/bolt-on connections, electronically detected OLPFs, front facing scratch mics, newer thermal management/ventilation placement, etc.

It's certainly going to take a bit to get all of that new internal tech up to snuff, but there's literally people at RED working around the clock to make that happen. I think you'll see more and perhaps the first shipping Weapons relatively soon if things are on track for July/late July still. Hopefully Carbon Fiber and Magnesium bodies happening fairly closely together, though I think you'll see some CF love early on as Jarred mentioned some of the first Weapons will be the Forged Carbon Fiber models. I'm really curious when we'll see 8K landing as well, but those are my interests. The other bit there is ET is cranking away at putting together the V-Lock and Gold-Lock Battery Plates and a few other accessories for launch. Those Battery Plates will be an essential part of getting those cameras rigged up and used on productions.

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

Just looking at the specs it does look like different camera from the Epic. Totally redesigned...

hopefully its its that sexy image that got people excited back in 2007

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

Well said Phil, and I don't behoove you at all for getting the inside scoop -I'm actually fairly jealous. You're right near RSH so that lends well to the accessibility. And let's face it -you do put the cameras through a lot, think intelligently as to where color science needs to go, or other tweaks which ultimately benefit the rest of us.

Like many others I've invested close to 300K in Red since my first deposit. I'm not anywhere near getting my investment back, but that's in large part due to the fact we're an Arri town. Some Red jobs come, but the producers bring their own cameras...it's a very hard business proposition these days because unless you're in production on your own stuff then you're not likely going to get the rentals we all used to rely on.

We've got a few things brewing in the next 3-9 months and if they come to fruition then my gear does pay for itself and we're at the forefront of camera tech. That's how I choose to look at it.

 

[ignition]

Feel I need to chime in and partially back peddle on my rather cynical earlier post.

It was largely fueled by some "microcosm" frustrations (that 'smaller picture' commercial / personal challenges and frustrations that constitute the bulk of most of our daily struggles and objective horizons, unfortunately).. and I regret openly putting that forward as contention to the "macrocosm" of innovation which RED has been trailblazing, which is the 'bigger picture' we cumulatively share. Personal frustrations in that space should be voiced in direct channels, not on open forums.

The irony of challenging the bigger picture in the face of my smaller picture concerns isn't entirely lost on me, in the face of this brilliant 8K revolution...

Of course I still have plenty of concerns I'll openly voice, which is why I said "partially back peddle". I'm stopping short of an apology to RED and the wider REDuser community, as open debate and contention has become the forge that shapes the sword of innovation and a gold mine to any company that remains cognisant of that fact their customer's commercially viability is intrinsically linked to their own.

I do, however, want to put forward an explicit and open apology to @Phil Holland who I've never met yet it my life yet (ashamedly) felt I could just draw into my own quagmire post through convenient association. That was wholly wrong and I sincerely apologize. Whatever my contentions around the upgrade pathway, financial commitments, prototype cameras, etc., Phil has continually and openly shared intellectual property and insight to the wider REDuser community, something I (as many) wholly appreciate and should never have brought into question. Sorry, Phil.

 

[Elsie N]

Feel I need to chime in and partially back peddle on my rather cynical earlier post.

It was largely fueled by some "microcosm" frustrations (that 'smaller picture' commercial / personal challenges and frustrations that constitute the bulk of most of our daily struggles and objective horizons, unfortunately).. and I regret openly putting that forward as contention to the "macrocosm" of innovation which RED has been trailblazing, which is the 'bigger picture' we cumulatively share. Personal frustrations in that space should be voiced in direct channels, not on open forums.

The irony of challenging the bigger picture in the face of my smaller picture concerns isn't entirely lost on me, in the face of this brilliant 8K revolution...

Of course I still have plenty of concerns I'll openly voice, which is why I said "partially back peddle". I'm stopping short of an apology to RED and the wider REDuser community, as open debate and contention has become the forge that shapes the sword of innovation and a gold mine to any company that remains cognisant of that fact their customer's commercially viability is intrinsically linked to their own.

I do, however, want to put forward an explicit and open apology to @Phil Holland who I've never met yet it my life yet (ashamedly) felt I could just draw into my own quagmire post through convenient association. That was wholly wrong and I sincerely apologize. Whatever my contentions around the upgrade pathway, financial commitments, prototype cameras, etc., Phil has continually and openly shared intellectual property and insight to the wider REDuser community, something I (as many) wholly appreciate and should never have brought into question. Sorry, Phil.

I personally saw your post as just that... venting. And I held you in no less esteem for doing it. I think it is healthy as a one-time thing (especially when you come back identifying it as "one-off" rather than "harping.")

As for Phil, that's between you and him.