When it's announced...

[Michael Olsen]

Not to mention that RED's own Mini-Primes are supposed to be rather affordable. Oh, and pretty.

 

[David Rasberry]

Not to mention that RED's own Mini-Primes are supposed to be rather affordable. Oh, and pretty.

Mini primes should be the best all around bargain out there for new glass.

 

[Gary Paul Walker]

Mini primes should be the best all around bargain out there for new glass.

I seem to remember them being $950 a piece - certainly a bargin!
I can easily see myself ordering a set the moment the interchangeable is ready.

It does seem strange that there's been so little said about the this brand of Scarlet though

 

[Eric Rodemann]

Personally, I think people often tend to get a little too philosophical regarding the term “professional” on this board. The point is not whether a tool CAN be used by professionals to obtain a result; it is whether it has been specifically designed to consistently do so.

As an analogy, I once had to call a professional plumber in to resolve a clog. I was sure he was going to hall in this large professional motorized snake to do so and was surprised when he opted to use a significantly less professional old coat hanger to do his job. That doesn’t make an old coat hanger a professional plumbing tool; rather it speaks to the professional’s ability to utilize his experience and creativity in determining what tool can accomplish his task. Conversely, I once had a clog that required rooting. I rented a professional motorized snake and did the job myself. However, this in no way makes me a professional plumber. It makes me some guy who used professional equipment.

There is a distinct difference between a professional’s tool (any tool used by a professional) and a professional tool (any tool designed specifically FOR the professional).

There’s no need to take RED’s use of the term “professional”personally. They aren’t calling people who choose to use other equipment unprofessional; they are merely trying to make a statement on the nature of their product: designed for professionals.

I don't think anyone does take it personally. Well, maybe someone does but I haven't seen it in this thread. I think the point is that so-called unprofessional equipment like the DSLRs will compete in certain segments of the market with professional equipment like the Scarlet. There's an overlap. I don't think any smart company or marketing team would ignore that.

In fact, openly stating the opposite, would be an indication to me that they are aware of this and taking it into consideration.

You don't need to tell people that a Bulldozer is not a Toyota Sedan. They don't do the same job, they don't compete in the same market, and everyone knows that without being told. No one would waste valuable marketing opportunities telling people that the Bulldozer is better for moving dirt than the Toyota Sedan.

Nuka Wolk seemed to be saying that since one camera is "pro" and the other is not, there is no overlap of any kind, and they simply don't share the same market space in any way. But the fact that he's going to take the time to explain this indicates to me the opposite is true. If you have to spend time making the distinction, it's because both tools might be considered for the same job.

Again, would the Scarlet have replaced the 5d Mark II on Captain America if it was available at the time of shooting? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not.

Once the Scarlet is released will no major motion picture ever use the 5d Mark 3? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. Is it possible someone might consider both of those cameras for the same job? Yes, I think it's possible. Nuka Wolk seemed to think that was inconceivable.

Me, I want a Scarlet. The big guys are a lot more capable of dealing with compression issues from the DSLRs in post than I am. I'll take a fixed lens. Some feature films have been shot on nothing but a 50mm lens, so I think the range you get with the Scarlet fixed lens will be more than adequate.

 

[Paramon Ivanovich]

I would love it if a year from now we were all saying: DSLR video is dead, and Scarlet is the box they buried it in.

never gonna happen, today DSLR is a cinema tool for masses, for no budget productions, I am not saying no budget equal no value, some work of some guys is so well done that some 'professionals' could learn how to shoot; I'm just saying price point of complete working Scarlet set ( not just Scarlet one red volt and one CF card, or SSD) will be significantly higher than let's say 7D with a few decent lenses;

 

[Nuka Wølk]

I don't think anyone does take it personally. Well, maybe someone does but I haven't seen it in this thread. I think the point is that so-called unprofessional equipment like the DSLRs will compete in certain segments of the market with professional equipment like the Scarlet. There's an overlap. I don't think any smart company or marketing team would ignore that.

In fact, openly stating the opposite, would be an indication to me that they are aware of this and taking it into consideration.

You don't need to tell people that a Bulldozer is not a Toyota Sedan. They don't do the same job, they don't compete in the same market, and everyone knows that without being told. No one would waste valuable marketing opportunities telling people that the Bulldozer is better for moving dirt than the Toyota Sedan.

Nuka Wolk seemed to be saying that since one camera is "pro" and the other is not, there is no overlap of any kind, and they simply don't share the same market space in any way. But the fact that he's going to take the time to explain this indicates to me the opposite is true. If you have to spend time making the distinction, it's because both tools might be considered for the same job.

Again, would the Scarlet have replaced the 5d Mark II on Captain America if it was available at the time of shooting? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not.

Once the Scarlet is released will no major motion picture ever use the 5d Mark 3? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. Is it possible someone might consider both of those cameras for the same job? Yes, I think it's possible. Nuka Wolk seemed to think that was inconceivable.

Me, I want a Scarlet. The big guys are a lot more capable of dealing with compression issues from the DSLRs in post than I am. I'll take a fixed lens. Some feature films have been shot on nothing but a 50mm lens, so I think the range you get with the Scarlet fixed lens will be more than adequate.

Ehhh, what...?? I think your manipulating my words for you own arguments sake. You also didn't quote me. AND, it seems you didn't read my other comments! Great way to get you point across...

There IS an overlap - hence the potentially bigger market as I mentioned.

And where exactly can't I concieve that someone would choose a 5D or whatever for a major motion picture...?? Again...read my comments and you'll learn different.

Btw. Captain America was primarially shot with the Panavision Genesis. No entire scene was shot with the Canon 5D mk II. It was used for tight space shooting - for example: the motorcycle chase scene - Canon 5D was used for POV shots and for mounting on the vehicles and still remain hidden from the other cameras.
This is not uncommon for some major motion pictures (as I also pointed out in a former comment).

Either way you try to label DSLR's - they aren't and never will be professional motion picture cameras...but that doesn't make a DSLR an "unprofessional" tool (who said that), it just isn't designed as a professional film camera. How hard is it to comprehend? Again, you conform words to get your own point across. Again..."great form", Eric...

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

Not 16mm and blown up on 35mm? Also, Lars Von Trier once pointed out that Søren Kragh-Jacobsen broke one of the rules when he used lights from a car as set lighting - maybe it isn't even a Dogme-film at all ;D

Oh you're right, it was shot on 16mm. But the breaking of the rules apply to them all in some way or another.

 

[Eric Rodemann]

If some people can't wait for the SCARLET and decides to get a DSLR instead - then I have to assume that those people didn't really need a professional camera in the first place, or just doesn't realize what they get with a SCARLET. RED doesn't have to put this camera out before Canon, Sony or whatever releases some of their new cameras since they are not competing with those camera manufactures.

I think Red is competing with Sony and Canon. All three companies are, I think, making cameras that could be used in the same situation.

I'm not a professional camera man.

Would the Scarlet have been a good choice to replace the Canon 5d Mark II on Captain America?

I really don't know. Is the cost a factor, so that' it's ok to smash a 5d, but they wouldnt' want to smash a Scarlet? Is size a factor in that perhaps the Scarlet isn't quite as small as the 5d? Is there some intrinsic IQ that would make the determination?

I couldn't say. I don't suppose anyone could say definitively since the Scarlet isn't out, but I"m sure someone could conjecture better than me.

Maybe you're right and the cameras are so different, the Scarlet would never be considered for the same job they used the 5d on. But if they would consider a Scarlet for those shots, then yes, they are competing.

 

[TomDannenberg]

IMHO it is still waste of time to discuss about a Scarlet, which was announced several years ago
and hasn't been released so far. And it is waste of time to discuss its pic quality and the not available
accessories.

As long I cannot go into a movie cam shop and try this device by my own, it makes no sense to compare
this fictive camera with other products on the market right now. In the past, I went often
to a shop and left ten thousands of EURs for a new device. Test it, buy it. No phantasy discussions.

Announcing the Scarlet as "true motion picture camera" says fairly nothing. All we have seen were footage examples
of a camera, which is still in the prototype phase.


Regarding the Ikonoskop: I am not sure with that cam. I haven't worked with that so far, but the test footages
I have seen had all strange color/WB "flips" during recording. For being RAW, directly saved to file, frame by frame,
this is a no-go. I dunno if the cam has some auto WB setting or sth else, but it looked very buggy to me.

 

[David Rasberry]

Scarlet will be suitable as a general purpose professional grade motion picture camera that one could use to efficiently shoot any type of production in virtually any situation without serious compromises. In that sense DSLR's cannot be considered a serious professional motion production tool. They lack the necessary operating features, I/O and monitoring capabilities, and image quality to be practical general purpose production cameras.
Yes people, including some high level pros, use them for production under some limited circumstances that play to their particular strengths. Some people use them because they can't afford anything better. They are a great low cost learning tool for students. But no working pro would pick a DSLR as the primary A camera to make his living with if he had any choice in the matter unless he was primarily shooting stills.

I expect Scarlet to be pretty much capable of the same kind of image quality that we are seeing from Epic with the obvious differences in resolution. Scarlet will resolve about like the Arri Alexa or Epic at 3k. Look at some of the 2k 300fps Epic footage shot by Mark Toia and you will see something very similar to what we can expect from Scarlet. Red has proven its ability to deliver cameras that produce images with exceptional film like quality and I don't see Scarlet being any different, just more like 16mm than 35mm.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Scarlet will be suitable as a general purpose professional grade motion picture camera that one could use to efficiently shoot any type of production in virtually any situation without serious compromises. In that sense DSLR's cannot be considered a serious professional motion production tool. They lack the necessary operating features, I/O and monitoring capabilities, and image quality to be practical general purpose production cameras.
Yes people, including some high level pros, use them for production under some limited circumstances that play to their particular strengths. Some people use them because they can't afford anything better. They are a great low cost learning tool for students. But no working pro would pick a DSLR as the primary A camera to make his living with if he had any choice in the matter unless he was primarily shooting stills.

Or poor.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Standard 16mm camera lenses will cover Scarlet's sensor just fine at the full 3k resolution. No cropping necessary. I have several lenses from old 16mm cameras too, and have selectively added a few more choice ones from Ebay.

Awesome! So picking up a few old bolex lenses is a good choice to get some additional lenses if needed. Assuming they're in good shape of course. You just need to make sure they're non reflex lenses right?

 

[Ryan Farnes]

Scarlet will be suitable as a general purpose professional grade motion picture camera that one could use to efficiently shoot any type of production in virtually any situation without serious compromises. In that sense DSLR's cannot be considered a serious professional motion production tool. They lack the necessary operating features, I/O and monitoring capabilities, and image quality to be practical general purpose production cameras.
Yes people, including some high level pros, use them for production under some limited circumstances that play to their particular strengths. Some people use them because they can't afford anything better. They are a great low cost learning tool for students. But no working pro would pick a DSLR as the primary A camera to make his living with if he had any choice in the matter unless he was primarily shooting stills.

And yet, here we all are, having used DSLRs for the last year or two. (most of us at least)

:devil:

Hehe, agreed, agreed.

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

I expect Scarlet to be pretty much capable of the same kind of image quality that we are seeing from Epic with the obvious differences in resolution. Scarlet will resolve about like the Arri Alexa or Epic at 3k. Look at some of the 2k 300fps Epic footage shot by Mark Toia and you will see something very similar to what we can expect from Scarlet. Red has proven its ability to deliver cameras that produce images with exceptional film like quality and I don't see Scarlet being any different, just more like 16mm than 35mm.

Well, to some degree it could actually look better. The Epic 2K footage is from a cropped sensor, Scarlet footage can be scaled and debayered from 3K to 2K.

 

[Michael Olsen]

Well, to some degree it could actually look better. The Epic 2K footage is from a cropped sensor, Scarlet footage can be scaled and debayered from 3K to 2K.

This is my understanding as long good old ceteris paribus holds out and the difference in chip architecture doesn't cause a significant difference in terms of percentage resolved detail.

The 2K Epic footage will be resolving a large percentage of that (for our purposes here, lets say 83%), so something on the order of 1.6K.

The 3K Scarlet footage will be resolving a similarly large percentage (lets say 80%), leaving us with 2.4K.

 

[Nuka Wølk]

I think Red is competing with Sony and Canon. All three companies are, I think, making cameras that could be used in the same situation.

I'm not a professional camera man.

Would the Scarlet have been a good choice to replace the Canon 5d Mark II on Captain America?

I really don't know. Is the cost a factor, so that' it's ok to smash a 5d, but they wouldnt' want to smash a Scarlet? Is size a factor in that perhaps the Scarlet isn't quite as small as the 5d? Is there some intrinsic IQ that would make the determination?

I couldn't say. I don't suppose anyone could say definitively since the Scarlet isn't out, but I"m sure someone could conjecture better than me.

Maybe you're right and the cameras are so different, the Scarlet would never be considered for the same job they used the 5d on. But if they would consider a Scarlet for those shots, then yes, they are competing.

What's your argument this time? That RED needs to get SCARLET out before they lose the all important crash-cam segment market share??

And to your "Captain America"-argument. As it happens, the cinematographer actually already said that he'd have chosen a RED camera(4K) over the Genesis(1080p) for Captain America. Why he didn't is beyond me. Also, if SCARLET was available (probably mostly the interchangeable), then they'd most likely go with that instead of the 5D - as crash-cam costs on such a huge production really isn't a concern - good results are far more important. They wanted the small form factor - they chose the 5D, and I completely understand why.

...and consider this for a moment. What about the huge number of DSLR, HD-camera owners who will sell their cameras to get the SCARLET? SCARLET will most likely, for lot of professionals and people who want to work with pro cameras - be the better and superior choice (naturally!).

And to Tom. Regardless if SCARLET is a prototype camera - it IS a raw digital motion picture camera. If there were only one SCARLET, it would still be a raw digital motion picture camera.

 

[Michael Olsen]

 

[Gabriel Winebrenner]

What's your argument this time? That RED needs to get SCARLET out before they lose the all important crash-cam segment market share??
Also, if SCARLET was available (probably mostly the interchangeable), then they'd most likely go with that instead of the 5D - as crash-cam costs on such a huge production really isn't a concern - good results are far more important. They wanted the small form factor - they chose the 5D, and I completely understand why.
)

The Weisscam T would also be a great crash camera as well as a Scarlet contender in all its A-Cam glory(basically same engineering as the Ikonoskop but smaller physically), and might be out even before Scarlet, so who knows... Also supports 2/3 2k, 35mm 3k, and 35mm 4k with your choice of sensor, ccd or cmos! Also, records uncompressed RAW to SSD. Weisscam is pretty good about releasing stuff on time so who knows. Can't wait!

 

[Nuka Wølk]

The Weisscam T would also be a great crash camera as well as a Scarlet contender in all its A-Cam glory(basically same engineering as the Ikonoskop but smaller physically), and might be out even before Scarlet, so who knows... Also supports 2/3 2k, 35mm 3k, and 35mm 4k with your choice of sensor, ccd or cmos! Also, records uncompressed RAW to SSD. Weisscam is pretty good about releasing stuff on time so who knows. Can't wait!

Cool. I wasn't aware of it. Thanks

 

[Nuka Wølk]

Haha!!