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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

When it's announced...

... If the new canon is a RAW real true 1080p with 120fps. I thnk that will hurt them...

In your dreams. The rumored 1DMK4 is a 35mp still camera. RAW by definition cannot scale, skip, or bin pixels to a lower resolution format since it is the the individual pixel data directly from the sensor that is recorded to a RAW file. As Red does, RAW can only be cropped to a smaller format, doing anything else is not RAW. The new camera will have yet another MPEG4 codec of some flavor processed from some portion of the camera's sensor in some way that reduces it to 1080p, hopefully with better quality and fewer artifacts. But the fact that the camera will still have an optical mirror system tells you all you need to know. It will be a pro still camera with compromised video quality. As with past 1D series cameras, Canon's top of the line still body will cost likely around $7K as past versions have. Not a low cost tool for indie film makers, nor the best first choice for motion production when you have the FS100 and AF100 available for less, Scarlet at about the same price range, and Sony F3 along with soon to be Epic-S with vastly superior motion performance for a bit more.
Scarlet is a 16mm/ 2/3" format motion picture camera that best serves markets where the advantages of the smaller format make it a superior choice. Frame rates, Resolution and DR superior to both S16mm film and existing 2/3"HD video cameras at a break through price range is what Scarlet is about.
 
Skipping over what's professional...


If any new DSLR in the next year comes out that does:

1) a proper debayer from a FF35 or S35 sensor of 20+MP to 1080p at 120fps to a proper codec

-or-

2) offers the same 20-35MP available in RAW at 120fps

-and-

3) costs less than $15,000

I will actually eat a hat. That will be quite an achievement (both the camera, and ingesting so much felt).

--

Staying off the somewhat forbidden topic of DSLRs, though...

I believe Scarlet will be happening soon. As soon as RED can possibly make them given their priorities - namely EPIC-X, all of the stage orders, module development and support for those customers and cameras.

I believe we will know that Scarlet is coming well before it does. Maybe not more than a month or two, but we will have plenty of ideas once we start seeing Jarred playing with it, once we start seeing some mini-primes (here's hoping!), and once we start seeing a few folks (Ketch, Mark, Gibby, Joseph, etc.) messing about as well.
 
I stand by my opinion (haha, which I knew would generate some reactions) and I respect yours ;)

If your choice is between a DSLR and the SCARLET - then why not pick a DSLR?? Why wait?? Why bother buying a SCARLET if a DSLR is "good enough" for you and what you do?!?!

There are MANY major features and big television shows that have utilized DSLR's - almost everyone of them used another camera(professional film studio camera designed specifically for motion photography) as their main weapon of choice and the DSLR's were used for for example crash cams, pov shots, tight space shots, ect. The SCARLET was designed to be a affordable and professional RAW DIGITAL MOTION PICTURE CAMERA - which DSLR's were NOT - and to provide super high quality images, which DSLR's video mode can't compete with (either way you cut it). DSLR's are not professional motion picture cameras: 1st. - because they weren't designed for motion but for still, 2nd. - well, they don't shoot motion pictures do they. They shoot video. DSLR's are at best: digital still cameras with SOME "HD"(720'ish resolution) video features - a interchangeable HD video camera.

The danish Dogme-films were shot on DV and similar. Were they then shot on professional movie cameras...no - they were shot on video cameras (some of them might have been pro-class video cameras). 28 days later was for the most part shot on DV (the ending on 35mm). Were those DV-cameras utilized for that movie pro movie cameras?? No they were still DV-cameras used on a relative big movie. Was the people behind those films professionals - yes, they were indeed!! Would an EPIC become a consumer camera if an amateur would use it - no! It would still be a professional motion picture camera designed for professionals :)

I myself have used DSLR's for pro jobs and I didn't consider myself less of a "pro" by that fact :D But I'm tired of all the workarounds and hasle to even get a somewhat acceptable result. I'm used to working with professional cameras that were designed for motion photography and can provide superb image quality - that is why I want the SCARLET. If the SCARLET never happens, then I'll move up to an EPIC. No more DSLR's for me (except for possible crash cam or other odd jobs) and for still photography.

Cameras are just tools. Some were designed for professional motion picture photography - other cameras were not, some don't even come close :)

I truly believe that the DSLR motion photography trend (as I see it) will not have a long life in cinema og motion photography. It will most likely walk in the footsteps of DV and the impact that that specific format had on cinema. Like DSLR's it was very cheap and easily accessible. DSLR motion photography will in time reach the same destiny that DV met in cinema. And I predict that DSLR's will suffer the DV-destiny in a near future...

Btw. I'm quite aware of the times and technologies before and now. I've made films shot with anything from VHS to 35mm. But pro-cameras are made for professionals - for people who actually know what they are doing (and being able to make images for a motion pictures, commercial job ect. is a very small part of being a pro...VERY, very small part...) ;)
 
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I stand by my opinion (haha, which I knew would generate some reactions) and I respect yours ;)

If your choice is between a DSLR and the SCARLET - then why not pick a DSLR?? Why wait?? Why bother buying a SCARLET if a DSLR is "good enough" for you and what you do?!?!

There are MANY major features and big television shows that have utilized DSLR's - almost everyone of them used another camera(professional film studio camera designed specifically for motion photography) as their main weapon of choice and the DSLR's were used for for example crash cams, pov shots, tight space shots, ect. The SCARLET was designed to be a affordable and professional RAW DIGITAL MOTION PICTURE CAMERA - which DSLR's were NOT - and to provide super high quality images, which DSLR's video mode can't compete with (either way you cut it). DSLR's are not professional motion picture cameras: 1st. - because they weren't designed for motion but for still, 2nd. - well, they don't shoot motion pictures do they. They shoot video. DSLR's are at best: digital still cameras with SOME "HD"(720'ish resolution) video features - a interchangeable HD video camera.

The danish Dogme-films were shot on DV and similar. Were they then shot on professional movie cameras...no - they were shot on video cameras (some of them might have been pro-class video cameras). 28 days later was for the most part shot on DV (the ending on 35mm). Were those DV-cameras utilized for that movie pro movie cameras?? No they were still DV-cameras used on a relative big movie. Was the people behind those films professionals - yes, they were indeed!! Would an EPIC become a consumer camera if an amateur would use it - no! It would still be a professional motion picture camera designed for professionals :)

I myself have used DSLR's for pro jobs and I didn't consider myself less of a "pro" by that fact :D But I'm tired of all the workarounds and hasle to even get a somewhat acceptable result. I'm used to working with professional cameras that were designed for motion photography and can provide superb image quality - that is why I want the SCARLET. If the SCARLET never happens, then I'll move up to an EPIC. No more DSLR's for me (except for possible crash cam or other odd jobs) and for still photography.

Cameras are just tools. Some were designed for professional motion picture photography - other cameras were not, some don't even come close :)

I truly believe that the DSLR motion photography trend (as I see it) will not have a long life in cinema og motion photography. It will most likely walk in the footsteps of DV and the impact that that specific format had on cinema. Like DSLR's it was very cheap and easily accessible. DSLR motion photography will in time reach the same destiny that DV met in cinema. And I predict that DSLR's will suffer the DV-destiny in a near future...

Btw. I'm quite aware of the times and technologies before and now. I've made films shot with anything from VHS to 35mm. But pro-cameras are made for professionals - for people who actually know what they are doing (and being able to make images for major motion pictures is a very small part of being a pro...VERY, very small part...) ;)

I agree with all of this as well. My point being before is the camera still has to be out! And like you said, sure they can upgrade to the Epic...then again, it has to be out and affordable to the budget. I for one work on different seasonal projects (surfing and skiing). And I don't like using DSLR's and I'd love to ditch them and upgrade to something like a Scarlet or a Epic. The problem becomes budget and timeline. I feel the same happens to others. While I do agree there is a difference in the camera's and the market for them, if the Scarlet isn't out, and there is nothing really even in that category to compete it won't stop people from putting there money elsewhere if they have a deadline to hit and the camera still isn't out. I'm sure they're doing everything they can, and for that I thank them! I love what RED is doing, and I wish like many on here that I could afford to get an Epic and shoot that, but reality is, I can't. My budget and my jobs don't pay me enough to afford that kind of hardware. Do I want a F3, FS100, or High end DSLR? No. But if the Scarlet isn't out and I need a camera to be shooting on...what am I to do? Maybe others in this position too?

I don't think the DSLR discussion is to try and compare the two, its more of a contrast in cost of what can be afforded. I dont think anyone on REDUSER is under the assumption that a DSLR will provide the same capabilities as the Scarlet so much as what the Scarlet gives them the ability to afford in a camera and the time they're willing to wait for it. I wish I was able to do what you plan on doing if the Scarlets never come out...to bad I'd never beable to afford a house If I did that...I really want to get a Fixed and then get a Scarlet interchangeable after I've had a chance to rebuild my budget. Anyword on the mini-primes and plans for something with more range then the 100mm? Say a 300?
 
The danish Dogme-films were shot on DV and similar. Were they then shot on professional movie cameras...no - they were shot on video cameras (some of them might have been pro-class video cameras). 28 days later was for the most part shot on DV (the ending on 35mm). Were those DV-cameras utilized for that movie pro movie cameras?? No they were still DV-cameras used on a relative big movie. Was the people behind those films professionals - yes, they were indeed!! Would an EPIC become a consumer camera if an amateur would use it - no! It would still be a professional motion picture camera designed for professionals :)

Eh, Mifunes Sidste Sang was shot on 35mm. But yeah, you definately have a point.
 
Eh, Mifunes Sidste Sang was shot on 35mm. But yeah, you definately have a point.

Not 16mm and blown up on 35mm? Also, Lars Von Trier once pointed out that Søren Kragh-Jacobsen broke one of the rules when he used lights from a car as set lighting - maybe it isn't even a Dogme-film at all ;D
 
I agree with all of this as well. My point being before is the camera still has to be out! And like you said, sure they can upgrade to the Epic...then again, it has to be out and affordable to the budget. I for one work on different seasonal projects (surfing and skiing). And I don't like using DSLR's and I'd love to ditch them and upgrade to something like a Scarlet or a Epic. The problem becomes budget and timeline. I feel the same happens to others. While I do agree there is a difference in the camera's and the market for them, if the Scarlet isn't out, and there is nothing really even in that category to compete it won't stop people from putting there money elsewhere if they have a deadline to hit and the camera still isn't out. I'm sure they're doing everything they can, and for that I thank them! I love what RED is doing, and I wish like many on here that I could afford to get an Epic and shoot that, but reality is, I can't. My budget and my jobs don't pay me enough to afford that kind of hardware. Do I want a F3, FS100, or High end DSLR? No. But if the Scarlet isn't out and I need a camera to be shooting on...what am I to do? Maybe others in this position too?

I don't think the DSLR discussion is to try and compare the two, its more of a contrast in cost of what can be afforded. I dont think anyone on REDUSER is under the assumption that a DSLR will provide the same capabilities as the Scarlet so much as what the Scarlet gives them the ability to afford in a camera and the time they're willing to wait for it. I wish I was able to do what you plan on doing if the Scarlets never come out...to bad I'd never beable to afford a house If I did that...I really want to get a Fixed and then get a Scarlet interchangeable after I've had a chance to rebuild my budget. Anyword on the mini-primes and plans for something with more range then the 100mm? Say a 300?

If you HAVE to own a good camera for motion photography - then I really think the answer is simple - it's made by RED, haha ;D All joking aside, if you need something to shoot with on a job, then rent a good camera - I do. And jobs differ, so why stick with a DSLR? :)

I actually do believe that there are some people who can't really see the huge differences between a SCARLET and a DSLR like a 5D mk II or even some of the new rumored ones. :)

Just a general point(Not directed at you, Jeffrey. You just got me thinking): Another thing. I don't understand why some would want to OWN an expensive camera if they can't afford it, not to mention with the cost of the media and accessories? I mean, what are they going to use if for, if not for making money? I can understand if some weren't able to rent one because there weren't any camera rental shops anywhere close by, or if they wanted to produce an independent film without having to rent and care about that whole part of filmmaking. If you can afford a DSLR NOW with video mode and some good glass, or some of the HD cameras out there - then do it. Get some jobs, make some money and take the next step when you're financially ready to do so. Pro cameras are expensive - SCARLET just happen to be a VERY affordable motion picture camera, but it's still an expensive camera...
 
I truly believe that the DSLR motion photography trend (as I see it) will not have a long life in cinema og motion photography. It will most likely walk in the footsteps of DV and the impact that that specific format had on cinema. Like DSLR's it was very cheap and easily accessible. DSLR motion photography will in time reach the same destiny that DV met in cinema. And I predict that DSLR's will suffer the DV-destiny in a near future...

Scarlet represents the lower tier model of a DSMC concept that RED has championed. The video feature in DSLRs is a very similar concept, but from a different direction. They are only going to get better. Already people are exploring compact cameras.

It seems entirely dependent on how much or how little development the video feature is given, which, just like Scarlet's release date, none of us know.
 
Personally, I think people often tend to get a little too philosophical regarding the term “professional” on this board. The point is not whether a tool CAN be used by professionals to obtain a result; it is whether it has been specifically designed to consistently do so.

As an analogy, I once had to call a professional plumber in to resolve a clog. I was sure he was going to hall in this large professional motorized snake to do so and was surprised when he opted to use a significantly less professional old coat hanger to do his job. That doesn’t make an old coat hanger a professional plumbing tool; rather it speaks to the professional’s ability to utilize his experience and creativity in determining what tool can accomplish his task. Conversely, I once had a clog that required rooting. I rented a professional motorized snake and did the job myself. However, this in no way makes me a professional plumber. It makes me some guy who used professional equipment.

There is a distinct difference between a professional’s tool (any tool used by a professional) and a professional tool (any tool designed specifically FOR the professional).

There’s no need to take RED’s use of the term “professional”personally. They aren’t calling people who choose to use other equipment unprofessional; they are merely trying to make a statement on the nature of their product: designed for professionals.
 
If you HAVE to own a good camera for motion photography - then I really think the answer is simple - it's made by RED, haha ;D All joking aside, if you need something to shoot with on a job, then rent a good camera - I do. And jobs differ, so why stick with a DSLR? :)

I actually do believe that there are some people who can't really see the huge differences between a SCARLET and a DSLR like a 5D mk II or even some of the new rumored ones. :)

Just a general point(Not directed at you, Jeffrey. You just got me thinking): Another thing. I don't understand why some would want to OWN an expensive camera if they can't afford it, not to mention with the cost of the media and accessories? I mean, what are they going to use if for, if not for making money? I can understand if some weren't able to rent one because there weren't any camera rental shops anywhere close by, or if they wanted to produce an independent film without having to rent and care about that whole part of filmmaking. If you can afford a DSLR NOW with video mode and some good glass, or some of the HD cameras out there - then do it. Get some jobs, make some money and take the next step when you're financially ready to do so. Pro cameras are expensive - SCARLET just happen to be a VERY affordable motion picture camera, but it's still an expensive camera...

The thing I love about this board is everyone approaches you with respect, even if they don't entirely agree. You make good points, but to kind of answer the question, its hard in my case since I travel and the time can vary depending on the conditions and weather when I get there. Renting a camera for a few days is different then planning on a 2 week trip, then staying 3-4 weeks because the weather changes. And some places I've gone wouldn't have a good camera to rent. Most places would have something usable, but it varies. For this I'd want my own camera. I'm really pulling for the Scarlet. If anything I'll probably end up getting a serviceable camera for the mean time then consider the Scarlet Cinema a bit more seriously than the fixed. But right now the Fixed is on my radar.
 
Scarlet represents the lower tier model of a DSMC concept that RED has championed. The video feature in DSLRs is a very similar concept, but from a different direction. They are only going to get better. Already people are exploring compact cameras.

It seems entirely dependent on how much or how little development the video feature is given, which, just like Scarlet's release date, none of us know.

SCARLET and EPIC are dedicated motion photography cameras with an optional tiny form factor, also quite practical for it's dedicated still mode. It was designed that way - the many possibilities of a modular DSMC system. Development is a key word in this context! The DSLR's were designed for still photography. Not for motion, modularity at the same sense of the DSMC system or for studio configurations. The groups that work on the still and the video part, are said to be two entirely separate groups who really doesn't influence each other that much. That's a very disturbing thought for a filmmaker :D But I also totally understand why that would possibly be the case - DSLR's aren't dedicated motion photography cameras - and I can't see why that would ever turn out to be the case. Now, DSMC's on the other hand - they have a bright future ahead of them I believe :)
 
Personally, I think people often tend to get a little too philosophical regarding the term “professional” on this board. The point is not whether a tool CAN be used by professionals to obtain a result; it is whether it has been specifically designed to consistently do so.

As an analogy, I once had to call a professional plumber in to resolve a clog. I was sure he was going to hall in this large professional motorized snake to do so and was surprised when he opted to use a significantly less professional old coat hanger to do his job. That doesn’t make an old coat hanger a professional plumbing tool; rather it speaks to the professional’s ability to utilize his experience and creativity in determining what tool can accomplish his task. Conversely, I once had a clog that required rooting. I rented a professional motorized snake and did the job myself. However, this in no way makes me a professional plumber. It makes me some guy who used professional equipment.

There is a distinct difference between a professional’s tool (any tool used by a professional) and a professional tool (any tool designed specifically FOR the professional).

There’s no need to take RED’s use of the term “professional”personally. They aren’t calling people who choose to use other equipment unprofessional; they are merely trying to make a statement on the nature of their product: designed for professionals.

Exactly
 
The thing I love about this board is everyone approaches you with respect, even if they don't entirely agree. You make good points, but to kind of answer the question, its hard in my case since I travel and the time can vary depending on the conditions and weather when I get there. Renting a camera for a few days is different then planning on a 2 week trip, then staying 3-4 weeks because the weather changes. And some places I've gone wouldn't have a good camera to rent. Most places would have something usable, but it varies. For this I'd want my own camera. I'm really pulling for the Scarlet. If anything I'll probably end up getting a serviceable camera for the mean time then consider the Scarlet Cinema a bit more seriously than the fixed. But right now the Fixed is on my radar.

Ahh yes, I see your problem right there. I understand completely. Yup, you really need that SCARLET. RED!! Give the man his SCARLET dang it!! ;D

I'm also very interested in the interchangeable SCARLET. But the Fixed just seems like a very sweet allround workhorse camera. I simply must have it! :)
 
Ahh yes, I see your problem right there. I understand completely. Yup, you really need that SCARLET. RED!! Give the man his SCARLET dang it!! ;D

I'm also very interested in the interchangeable SCARLET. But the Fixed just seems like a very sweet allround workhorse camera. I simply must have it! :)


Yup thats my problem. And hey I've made my 7D last this long, I'm sure I can push another year out of it. I've gotten some decent shots out of it. Wouldn't mind some critiques as many of you are much more cinema oriented! ;)

But I'm somewhere between both of them. I'm sure I'll get the fixed with some kind of tele converter to start out of excitement. But the Interchangeable may be something I add to my collection not to far down the road. I've got some old C-Mount lenses sitting around from my bolex. Do you know if they'll need to be Super 16 lenses specifically? I have a h16 reflex and a few lenses for that. Wonder if they'd work. I'm still learning about all the different sensors and sizes and how it effects cropping.
 
Yup thats my problem. And hey I've made my 7D last this long, I'm sure I can push another year out of it. I've gotten some decent shots out of it. Wouldn't mind some critiques as many of you are much more cinema oriented! ;)

But I'm somewhere between both of them. I'm sure I'll get the fixed with some kind of tele converter to start out of excitement. But the Interchangeable may be something I add to my collection not to far down the road. I've got some old C-Mount lenses sitting around from my bolex. Do you know if they'll need to be Super 16 lenses specifically? I have a h16 reflex and a few lenses for that. Wonder if they'd work. I'm still learning about all the different sensors and sizes and how it effects cropping.

Well, if you're going to shoot video with an DSLR then the 7D is (and still is in my opinion) one of the best DSLR's to do the job well. Another year shouldn't be a problem ;)

You can pretty much mount anyhing on the SCARLET I think, as long as you can get it on the mount or an adapter. But sure, you have to consider the crop factor - 35mm lenses will crop dramatically. The sensor on the SCARLET is quite similar to the size of the exposed area of 16mm film, Super 16 lenses should work fine with the sensor. Also the lenses would need to be able to provide you a sufficiently sharp image to get the most out of the 3K resolution. This of course, would be somewhat irelavant if it is a matter of aesthetics.

I believe that the two David's on this forum (Mullen and Rasberry) are way more knowledgeable in this area with far more specific details about which lenses could fit well on the SCARLET. Maybe you can PM them some of your questions? I'm positive that they would be very helpful :)
 
Well, if you're going to shoot video with an DSLR then the 7D is (and still is in my opinion) one of the best DSLR's to do the job well. Another year shouldn't be a problem ;)

You can pretty much mount anyhing on the SCARLET I think, as long as you can get it on the mount or an adapter. But sure, you have to consider the crop factor - 35mm lenses will crop dramatically. The sensor on the SCARLET is quite similar to the size of the exposed area of 16mm film, Super 16 lenses should work fine with the sensor. Also the lenses would need to be able to provide you a sufficiently sharp image to get the most out of the 3K resolution. This of course, would be somewhat irelavant if it is a matter of aesthetics.

I believe that the two David's on this forum (Mullen and Rasberry) are way more knowledgeable in this area with far more specific details about which lenses could fit well on the SCARLET. Maybe you can PM them some of your questions? I'm positive that they would be very helpful :)

Cool thanks for the info. I've PM'ed a few on here and never gotten a response. Haven't given it thought since. Back to hitting refresh...
 
or that Ikonoskop A-cam dII, which is already available.

Yes, wonder why most of the talk on here is about dslr(s) in comparison w/ the Scarlet when the A-Cam DII is a real digital super 16mm w/ a ccd sensor, fast as hell pans, really nice picture, not to mention uncompressed RAW, which you can buy now, although the euro/dollar situation kinda sucks... If Ikonoskop was still offering the bundle deal, I would have already bit by now, and hope they may reconsider if perhaps Scarlet happens to drop sometime soon. It's getting boring listening to folks talk about cameras that are not Scarlet's competition and not based on a super 16mm format. I personally like super 16 more than 35mm but I'm more of an independent than a hollywood person. Still confused why 35mm based dslr(s) are being compared to the Scarlet, when the Ikonoskop is the only other 16mm Raw camera available at the moment........??????????
 
Redcode is enough for me, when other companies start using more efficient codec then maybe. I like red as a company and I would love to support them but my budget at this point will not allow me to throw around that amount of cash for pure sentimental reasons, so yes if something better comes I will get it in a heart beat I'm just not going to hold my breath.

The red one has been out for a long time now, I don't see anything close too it except for the Alexa (and to shoot raw with Alexa is a little cumbersome at this point compared to red). None of the manufacturers in the scarlet's price range have indicated a big enough move to threaten scarlet's real standing points, DR and redcode and many others. Then there are the DSLR's which if they could rival the scarlet's stats at this point would cease to be DSLR's and become video camera's and I don't expect that kind of video functionality out of my stills camera for quite some time. There is nothing wrong with working with camera's with limitations as long as you know how to make them shine, but lets be realistic here DSLR's even the GH series are first and foremost stills cameras.

love to see that canon, wont buy it, but I doubt it'll come out with that, remember all the talk of the raw video canon last year, hey they could do it, I just doubt it.

Have a good one, and play nice!

edit: I'm talking in reference to raw image capture, which to me is very important along with a good set of programs to work it, I know not everyone feels this way, we all have our preferences nothing wrong with that.
 
Personally if I was RED, I'd be more comfortable knowing that I just sold one of my RED cameras to a pro - and not someone who really don't understand the (production)value or can't appreciate the awesome potential of this camera!

Philosophizing on what the term "professional" means is all well and good, but in discussing matters that are business related, I tend to gravitate towards cold and calculating.

Personally, if I was RED... I would love it if a year from now we were all saying: DSLR video is dead, and Scarlet is the box they buried it in.
 
Yup thats my problem. And hey I've made my 7D last this long, I'm sure I can push another year out of it. I've gotten some decent shots out of it. Wouldn't mind some critiques as many of you are much more cinema oriented! ;)

But I'm somewhere between both of them. I'm sure I'll get the fixed with some kind of tele converter to start out of excitement. But the Interchangeable may be something I add to my collection not to far down the road. I've got some old C-Mount lenses sitting around from my bolex. Do you know if they'll need to be Super 16 lenses specifically? I have a h16 reflex and a few lenses for that. Wonder if they'd work. I'm still learning about all the different sensors and sizes and how it effects cropping.

Standard 16mm camera lenses will cover Scarlet's sensor just fine at the full 3k resolution. No cropping necessary. I have several lenses from old 16mm cameras too, and have selectively added a few more choice ones from Ebay.
 
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