What will *you* rent it for?

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I can't imagine there is much of a film market at all in Portland, frankly, having lived there for my whole life I never noticed much of a film market. I guess there is some, it's a much bigger area for authors overall, though, lots of authors live in the Pacific Northwest in general.

On the other hand, there won't be much competition for you up in Portland, so that's good. Lower demand, lower supply.

Telepathy, I liked OffHollywood's idea, and I thought about that myself and we're planning to film a short when the camera(s) arrive, just for fun, it gives us something for the reel, should be fun, and is a great way to test the camera from pre-production through post-production since we'll manage it all. That way I can figure out how everything is going to work and what we might need to make it work better.

When you talk about a complete service from start to finish, though, what would be entailed when you mention post-production services? I mean so let's say I'm working with a client, they rent out the package, I (or someone) goes on set with knowledge of the camera and how it works, and we get the recording media they prefer to use, given options, now we have the footage, are you saying that we'd provide editing services, too, or merely be able to hand over footage that is properly logged and captured, for instance, or what would be the process there? Because if you were going to set up a small post operation alongside a RED rental business, that definitely is a bit bigger operation. Would producers want to work that way, or would they have trusted editors they want to use?

 

[Ken K]

Everyone is talking so much about how great the rental market will be in the first 4 months.

Really?

Maybe in NY, LA and Austin. Here in Portland I'm concerned. I've heard way too many "pros" in the area take on strong "wait and see" attitudes. I'm worried I'll be high and dry in my rental efforts until a ton of cameras flood the market providing proof of reliability and a ready supply of backup cameras.

Any tips on how to encourage first adopter renters without lowering prices?

Along the lines of Telepathy's comment, maybe those of us in smaller markets such as Portland could chip in and hold a screening for the filmmaker community. We could show some short films we've done with the Red and maybe get permission to show Crossing the Line as well.

Here in Portland, we could get a few of us to split the cost of renting the digital theater (Christie 2k projector) at Bridgeport or Cinetopia and show off our digital goods. Since it is a closeknit and smaller market, a couple months advanced notice and we could probably get a really good turnout.

I think once people see how amazing the footage looks, they'll be more likely to adopt the Red. That, and it's just so much cheaper than film but with similar/better quality.

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I've been to Bridgeport once, didn't go to the digital theater, or know they had one, I thought Oregon had no digital screens. So that's cool to learn. What I would like to know, though, is whether that Christie projector actually looks good. It better not be the same type of thing Christie passes off as a digital projector in every other auditorium, you know where they show pre-movie ads and trailers and behind-the-scenes stuff? I mean Regal does that at all of their theaters. The quality is TERRIBLE, I mean if I was just exposed to that and told "here's what digital looks like" I would say burn it, stick with film, because it's that bad.

Maybe if your eyesight is really awful then it could look ok but I have 20/12 vision (after Lasik surgery) and I can see every pixel on that screen, it really bothers me, it looks just dreadful. I'm assuming the 2K projector is much more impressive, though, because when I saw Revenge of the Sith in a digital theater it was amazing, clear, pristine, I loved that experience. So hopefully more like that and less like, well, Christie's lousy low end digital projectors.

 

[Stephen Williams]

You guys crack me up.

I've decided to rent out my RED package for three hot meals per day and two Red Bulls.

Hi Jonathan,

Many new owners will do that just to get on set, that's nothing new.

Stephen

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

haha, I'm not sure it would come to that. To me that's pretty absurd. I mean an $85K package, I don't care how much experience I have, that isn't going out for free. If it were to go out for free it'd be with a friend and I'd negotiate a cut of the profits or some alternative payment, for instance. What use would there be to be on a set if it's so unprofessional they are looking for free equipment? haha, no thanks.

Being on a set is not a big deal. It may be a big deal to people who have never been on one before, but for the most part it's incredibly boring if you're not in charge of something significant (just watching, for instance, is boring, but even being a grip is exciting because you're working). I think a lot of people have no clue how boring movie-making can be if you're just watching. When I've watched someone else's production, I was bored to tears. When I'm in charge of a production, I'm stressed, excited, and it seems really challenging and sometimes fun, because everything seems to be a race against time. Yet when I was watching it seemed like everything took forever and was actually boring.

There are better ways to be on set than buying many tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment. I'd figure if a production can't afford to pay for the camera equipment I own, then any of my productions are more professional than what they are doing so I'd have no use for them. Just my opinion.

 

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Hi Jonathan,

Many new owners will do that just to get on set, that's nothing new.

Stephen

Oh Stephen… you're one hell of a cheer leader ya know.:huh:

Emmanuel

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Stephen reminds me a bit of Oscar the Grouch. I loved Sesame Street, he was a great character, hehe.

 

[Ken K]

I've been to Bridgeport once, didn't go to the digital theater, or know they had one, I thought Oregon had no digital screens. So that's cool to learn. What I would like to know, though, is whether that Christie projector actually looks good. It better not be the same type of thing Christie passes off as a digital projector in every other auditorium, you know where they show pre-movie ads and trailers and behind-the-scenes stuff? I mean Regal does that at all of their theaters. The quality is TERRIBLE, I mean if I was just exposed to that and told "here's what digital looks like" I would say burn it, stick with film, because it's that bad.

Maybe if your eyesight is really awful then it could look ok but I have 20/12 vision (after Lasik surgery) and I can see every pixel on that screen, it really bothers me, it looks just dreadful. I'm assuming the 2K projector is much more impressive, though, because when I saw Revenge of the Sith in a digital theater it was amazing, clear, pristine, I loved that experience. So hopefully more like that and less like, well, Christie's lousy low end digital projectors.

Nah, the 2k projectors they use at Cinetopia (in Vancouver) and Bridgeport both look great. They're definitely not those ones they use to show pre-movie ads, where each pixel is the size of your fist. Yeah, those things suck. Anyway, Oregon's slowly gaining digital theaters... apparently we have 3-4 now, but the other two are in Corvallis and Springfield. Bridgeport only has one 2k projector, though. I think they got it just before 300 came out. Vancouver has Cinetopia (with 7 Christie 2k projectors) and Cascade 16.

 

[Stephen Williams]

haha, I'm not sure it would come to that. To me that's pretty absurd. I mean an $85K package, I don't care how much experience I have, that isn't going out for free. .

Hi Jonathan,

Spending a day with a great DOP on set, watching him light, is worth one hell of a lot IMHO. Last year I was a guest on Geoff Boyle's set while he was shooting Mutant Chronicles using a Viper. The knowledge I took away from just 5 hours was invaluable.

I am sorry that you find film sets boring.

Stephen

 

[Stephen Williams]

Oh Stephen… you're one hell of a cheer leader ya know.:huh:

Emmanuel

Hi Emmanual,

How many days do you have solid bookings for so far? Have any contracts been signed?

I know a still's photographer who charges $50,000 a day, his assistants all work free, they do that so they can put the job on their resume. Sometimes working for free on a High Profile campaign, will do more for your career than worrying how much you can rent a camera for 1 day for.

Stephen

 

[Stephen Webb]

Question for those on "the other side" ie thinking of hiring rather than owning, what are your opinions on a reasonable rate? I'd be interested to know how much you'd be willing to pay and for what level of kit.

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I would say most people find film sets boring if they're just watching. I'm not saying it's not great experience, but there is a lot of boredom.

And don't put words into my mouth -- I never said I find film sets boring. I said they are boring to watch. If you're working on a film set it's anything but boring.

A professional DP isn't going to ask me to bring my equipment for free, and it wouldn't ever happen. My time is worth money, and my equipment is worth a lot of money, and just hauling that much equipment to a set would be difficult in and of itself. I don't even think my car could hold all of that.

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Question for those on "the other side" ie thinking of hiring rather than owning, what are your opinions on a reasonable rate? I'd be interested to know how much you'd be willing to pay and for what level of kit.

That's a good question -- I like that. I would want to offer a fair price and good service to the producer primarily, that's my main concern, I want repeat business and I want to charge a rate that is fair.

 

[J. Bernard Vallon]

I'm thinking that the impact red will have will be when competing cameras come out (maybe 5-10 years), which are priced appropriately and deliver high caliber images. Sony might bow out, being that it is a small part of there business, but people like Canon, maybe Fuji, Dalsa, etc, will build 4k cameras at prices to match Red if they want to stay in the game.

It might make the film market look like still photography. Every pro photographer owns all there own gear. You higher the photographer, he brings his stuff. Today if I like a DP's work, I higher him to shoot a commercial and ask him what should we shoot on given budget and project details. In the future i might higher a DP, and he brings his gear along and its part of his rate. Rental would become a much smaller part of the industry, we'd just rent whatever items we dont have instead of the entire gear list.

 

[I Bloom]

Everyone is talking so much about how great the rental market will be in the first 4 months.

Really?

Maybe in NY, LA and Austin. Here in Portland I'm concerned. I've heard way too many "pros" in the area take on strong "wait and see" attitudes. I'm worried I'll be high and dry in my rental efforts until a ton of cameras flood the market providing proof of reliability and a ready supply of backup cameras.

Any tips on how to encourage first adopter renters without lowering prices?

Hmmm... That's a tough one. With RED #27 you might consider subletting a place down in L.A. and taking some jobs down there for a month or two. That is if you really can't get a rental in Portland. It seems like in the beggining its all about doing what you can to recoup your investment. After that...

IBloom

 

[Russ McDonald]

From the other side

From the other side

An single Arri Package for a week (3 day WK) 8800 I could most likely get a discount on that, depending on demand. That's everything same lenses as you would get if you had the full Red compliment, sticks, head, 4 mags etc... I was going to put up the quote, but the server is taken to long. Simply everything I would need to shoot my film for the cam department.(look at the quote I posted on page 21 of the thread for viper)

Now shooting film guys, I have to buy stock. Red getting rated at 500 ISO
Kodak Vision 5218 500t, Re-Cans around 42 cents a foot. Factory sealed around 58 cents a foot. You end up shooting an average of an hour a day. For the sake of the exercise lets go with 50 cents a foot. That's 5400 feet a day. thats 32400 ft in a 6 days a week of shooting 16,200 dollars in exposed film

Developing, sound sync, telecine, HDsr tape transfer, DVD dailies, and Labor about 2000 a day. 12000 a week. It hasn't found it's way in to an edit box yet mind you.

So lets say I got my Arri package For 7500 a week that's 2500 a day (3 day week) So for total camera department with a film workflow. 35,700 a week.

I haven't included the cost of the staff.

 

[Russ McDonald]

If you came to me, and told me not only will you give me the same quality as Super 35mm. A full package, and a staff for camera operation, and a bullet proof digital workflow into an edit box, and while I'm eating lunch, I can see what I shot that the morning.

You would give to me all that at 8000.00 a day @ 3 day week. For the sake of constancy that's 24,000 a week.

You think I'm not going to jump at that.

Apples to Apples Guys, If they want film quality and you're shooting 4k or 2K it's a feature film Camera

If your final output is 1080p, be competitive in your individual markets.

That is the beauty of your wise investments in Red One.

(Ibloom @ 500, ISO wouldn't we actually look better, than 35 mm, I've not shot on Vision 5218 500T grain structure wise. if anyone has shot it let me us know)

 

[Mark B.]

You know what would be a really funny way to rent cameras... we could all get together, put together a list of each camera owner, and as people ask for a rental we look at the list and figure out which nearby person/people have not earned enough rental money to pay for their camera ($17500), and then we send the renter over to that person. Eventually, possibly even quickly, everyone who bought a RedOne will have it paid for by the rental income. Each person could set their own rates, have their own rental contracts, their own insurance, rules about being along for the shoot, etc. But once they've exceeded earning $17500 (per camera) then they'll be put into a low-priority section of the list. After everyone has paid off their camera(s), the list would either be disbanded and we'd all go about our own business, or if everyone was happy with the reliable income from the rental triage then the list could be restarted and the process repeated over again.

 

[I Bloom]

(Ibloom @ 500, ISO wouldn't we actually look better, than 35 mm, I've not shot on Vision 5218 500T grain structure wise. if anyone has shot it let me us know)

Couldn't tell you. 5218 is great + I've never shot with a red.

In theory yes, and you can probably match the look in post.

In terms of economics the comparison between RED and film is unhelpful.

IBloom

 

[Russ McDonald]

In terms of economics the comparison between RED and film is unhelpful.

IBloom

Please elaborate