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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What will *you* rent it for?

What will *you* rent it for?

  • Total voters
    303
adobeone said:
If you came to me, and told me not only will you give me the same quality as Super 35mm. A full package, and a staff for camera operation, and a bullet proof digital workflow into an edit box, and while I'm eating lunch, I can see what I shot that the morning.

You would give to me all that at 8000.00 a day @ 3 day week. For the sake of constancy that's 24,000 a week.
Click to expand...

I think that sounds fair as long as you itemize everything in your quote.

Imaginary film stock: 50 cents/ft.

Pretend lab costs: 2000/day

Copying data from one hard drive to another:
Clicking: $500/day
Dragging:$1500/day
Waiting: $20/ft of imaginary film

etc.
 
adobeone said:
Please elaborate
Click to expand...

Completely different cost and labor structure.

There are three arguments here that I see for high rental prices:

1. Supply and demand or what the market will bear: "Until RED meets demand we can charge whatever we want. We were smart enough to get in line."
2. Comparison to other technologies: "We're still saving you money for the quality you are getting."
3. Actual cost structure, labor needed: "RED workflow is a rare and complex skill."

For me 3 is the only strong argument. The others are pure hustle though respectable all the way.

$9999 to turn the right knobs and press the right buttons. That's what I'm selling. Do you know the difference between an 8bit YUV DCT compressed image sampled 4:2:2 and a 12bit RGB Bayer pattern with pre-demosaiced wavelet compression. Do you know how to approach focus on a 35mm aperture? Do you know these words: metadata, quicktime reference file, luminance waveform, focus waveform, accuscene overlay? Do you know what a RAID 1 is or how to hook one up to a Macbook pro with high throughput?.............. I do :gun:

IBloom
 
So what you saying is if told you as a producer. I will give you and your crew 8000.00 a day @ 3 day rate. You have to do all the above, provide me with A camera, drives, viewfinder, LCD, sticks, fluid head, baby sticks,production pack, primes, 18-50 zoom, 300mm, 50-150 zoom, matte box, fallow focus, and all the personnel. Thats 96,000 dollars your going to earn over the next 30 days. You would not take my money and do the gig. :gun:
 
adobeone said:
So what you saying is if told you as a producer. I will give you and your crew 8000.00 a day @ 3 day rate. You have to do all the above, provide me with A camera, drives, viewfinder, LCD, sticks, fluid head, baby sticks,production pack, primes, 18-50 zoom, 300mm, 50-150 zoom, matte box, fallow focus, and all the personnel. Thats 96,000 dollars your going to earn over the next 30 days. You would not take my money and do the gig. :gun:
Click to expand...

Is this one of those questions like the Get Rich Quick, Motivational Speakers Ask? Russ. if I told you there was a way you could make $100,000 tommorow by buying the short sale of a house in foreclosure, you'd be pretty interested wouldn't you. You also might be surprised to know that I was once just like you....

I kid my friend, I can't speak to the exact figures that you have laid out. I can say that deals like 3 and 4 day weeks are for equipment rentals not labor, we charge that by the day in my neck of the woods.

IBloom
 
ibloom said:
Is this one of those questions like the Get Rich Quick, Motivational Speakers Ask? Russ. if I told you there was a way you could make $100,000 tommorow by buying the short sale of a house in foreclosure, you'd be pretty interested wouldn't you. You also might be surprised to know that I was once just like you....

IBloom
Click to expand...

Yes it's beginning to feel like that episode of Entourage with the old skool producer who ended every pitch with "....Is that something you would be interested in?"
 
I think it´s fine to exploit the bottleneck like pigs at the trough. What I don´t understand is why people with this intention are posting at this forum expecting some kind of admiration?
 
Ian, you could staff all day long for 24,000 a week. Unless your going to pay 2000.00 a day for a 1st AC.

As a Producer It's a line item.

As a producer I have to write a total of 38 checks for any movie. ( for the anal retentive people ) That means I have so much in my budget for the Art department lets say, that figure pays for the whole department materials and manpower for the whole movie. The Art Director has to budget within that Figure, dispersing it down the line to his people, and his venders. If he delivers his department on budget and meets the standards of quality. I'm a happy guy.

I don't Micro manage the cost of the chemicals at the lab....etc.

35mm production has fix cost's, so much per foot. Granted the cost fluctuate to a degree, penny's per foot. You can't just pay for it to be developed, then say ok projects over.

That's why film stock is such a great measure if your on budget or not.

More producer math here for everybody.
90 minute feature, 28 day schedule. That's 3 & 2/8 pages a day. With a 15:1 shooting ratio. So at the end of day one, the Director & DP should hand me 3 & 2/8 completed script supervisor notes, and 4320 hundred feet of exposed film.

But lets say the Director hands me 5500 ft of stock, keeps up his page count. He does that for a strait week, which I would never allow, but for the sake of the post he does, I may be on schedule, but I am over budget.
As an Independent film company there is no more money, if I let that continue I never finish the movie. More footage more costs, fixed costs unaccounted for in the shooting budget.

As a digital workflow we don't have feet, but we do have bytes. They got to be stored.
 
adobeone said:
As a digital workflow we don't have feet, but we do have bytes. They got to be stored.
Click to expand...

This is the final destination of your footage on set:

http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2268595&CatId=139

You need two of these for every roughly three hours of footage. That includes a backup copy. That's $200 for 3 hours of footage. No processing, no telecine, straight into FCP.

In comparison to film on a single camera shoot of controlled action...You just can't go over budget on storage costs. You simply can't shoot that much in a day.

IBloom
 
in a shameless attempt of selfpromotion i hereby confess - we will rent out for €349 (the body).
so, that said, could you now please tear
http://redrental.de
apart?

i am most certain that the beta website contains clumsy English...
and we would be grateful if you give us the opportunity to fix it pre-IBC.

we even started a thread to get some feedback
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3816
 
ZzzZZz... said:
I think it´s fine to exploit the bottleneck like pigs at the trough. What I don´t understand is why people with this intention are posting at this forum expecting some kind of admiration?
Click to expand...

It seems to me that the owners are the trough not the pigs. They may be riding the wave, but they have no control over it.

If someone is offering to rent your equipment for more than someone else which customer would you choose Z?

There is a clear motivation to display your high rates, and that is to convince your competition to bid higher for your mutual benefit. This same intent is the basis for labor unions.

IBloom
 
Thanks for the info my friend as always.

There are cost above and beyond the camera package. Not every film you do is going to have controlled action, or one camera. You and I have had many exchanges about value. If not in all most we have agreed.

I just pulled 8000.00 dollars out of the air as an example. What our base costs are for whatever pipeline we choose to implement, and the gear we hang on the camera is only a factor to us. With a few exception we are not in it to break even.

The original question was a view from the other side.

Do you think that my numbers in relationship to 35mm are way out, I'm sure you can wheel and deal here and there, but you're not going slice 50% of that. Unless you go Red.

When I talk about fees, I'm talking A to Z at the end I get my movie, filmed, ready to post, and with sufficient back up. That makes my Distributor, and my completion bond company happy. Considering the aforementioned, parties or for the most part are worst case scenario thinkers.

I'm not trying to justify the fees that I would charge to the members of this forum. Salesmanship and quality of performance will bare that out. I'm not a tech head. I Produce, Direct, and I write. I don't talk about making a my own movie, I went and did it.

So naturally I look at the process in a wide view. Not a departmental view. As I have said before. All you have helped me grow in that departmental way.

Rocketeer, made a good point about Entourage. How many of you would want me to negotiate your contract.

Ian my friend I'd get you a trailer, and a masseuse.
 
I don't think you are going to get crazy money for your cameras in the first months. Producers that I know who are working on projects that have decent budgets are very risk averse when it comes to any new technology.

They also generally hate to work with individuals and companies that they have not heard of when it's mission critical to their shoot.


Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
 
laguun said:
in a shameless attempt of selfpromotion i hereby confess - we will rent out for €349 (the body).
so, that said, could you now please tear
http://redrental.de
apart?

i am most certain that the beta website contains clumsy English...
and we would be grateful if you give us the opportunity to fix it pre-IBC.

we even started a thread to get some feedback
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3816
Click to expand...

Well… if that is your notion of standing for each other…then be it.
Actually I don't see the point at all of quoting "the body" only, since only the body is totally useless.
So please, if you really want to share in this thread I think it would be cool if you quoted a working package instead.
Hey Laguun, I hope you don't get me wrong, I respect your point of view, it's just that I don't "get it" at all.
We seem to view the value of such a camera in such a different way.
RedOne value will change overtime, but if you are starting so low, where do we go from there.
I hear people calling us pigs, man…, those people want to shoot their projects with the hottest thingt out there right when it hits the market (so they can stand out from their competitors…of course, why shouldn't they) but they don't wanna pay for that added value to their projects. I mean we are talking about the camera being used on sets like GUERRILLA and WANTED, you're talking about added value man, but they want to pay 500€ for it, I mean come on guys, let's stop calling each other names, and lets face reality for a change.
In a year from now or even sooner than that, people with very small budjet to no budjet projects, will be able to shoot with the RedOne for minimal cost, until then I find it most disheartning to have them come here and post "how they would love to shoot premium quality without paying premium quality".
Once again in 9 months or so the quality of red footage will still be the same but not as "premium" because much more common, then since it's not premium anynore, you shouldn't pay premium any longer.

Anyone caring to disagree with this is just lame… in my opinion that is.:tongue:

Take Care (at least some here take care of your income, wish you'd do the same for us)

Emmanuel
 
"Originally Posted by laguun View Post
in a shameless attempt of selfpromotion i hereby confess - we will rent out for €349 (the body).
so, that said, could you now please tear

apart?"

Emmanuel Cambier said:
Well… if that is your notion of standing for each other…then be it.
Actually I don't see the point at all of quoting "the body" only, since only the body is totally useless.
So please, if you really want to share in this thread I think it would be cool if you quoted a working package instead.
Hey Laguun, I hope you don't get me wrong, I respect your point of view, it's just that I don't "get it" at all.
We seem to view the value of such a camera in such a different way.
RedOne value will change overtime, but if you are starting so low, where do we go from there.
I hear people calling us pigs, man…, those people want to shoot their projects with the hottest thing out there right when it hits the market (so they can stand out from their competitors…of course, why shouldn't they) but they don't wanna pay for that added value to their projects. I mean we are talking about the camera being used on sets like GUERRILLA and WANTED, you're talking about added value man, but they want to pay 500€ for it, I mean come on guys, let's stop calling each other names, and lets face reality for a change.

Emmanuel
Click to expand...

Emmanuel,

Quoting the body only is the industry norm. Outside of that, the variables go in all directions.

The rest,

The attempt to "price fix" (minimums) is not going to work with this size audience. 1,000+ independent RED owners will never agree on a minimum rental price. I would love to see the lowest rental price be $1,500 per day, but that is not going to happen.

The suggestion has been made several times, and I agree, promote yourself, your work and talents to make up for what YOU need out of the camera rental fee. There are full time players in the "equipment only" rental market. I would suspect that anyone looking to rent "equipment only" will want the benefits they provide, such as back up when a drive or camera fails etc...

We will only allow our cameras out with crew.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,
G
 
Hi G

You are riht, quoting the body only is sometimes the norm and generally followed by a quote of the different options, which Laguun didn't provide in his post.

Please don't see any attempt to "price fix" a minimum here, this is "not" the case, I'm only trying to help some Red Brothers to make the most out of their investment… and ours.

Just yesterday, a red brother with a very very early reservation number was worried how he could pay his camera back, we are talking about a very early reservation with a huge income potential in any big cinema city around the world.
I mean… this clearly shows that some brothers don't seem to see the light yet.
I'm simply trying to say think outside your own shoebox, we all have to, if we want to move forward in this life.

Oh yeah G, I don't see in your post any reference to a timeframe, like low supply high demand and then High supply low demand, would you care to comment on this.

Your Red Brother

Emmanuel
 
Emmanuel,

High demand and low supply will almost always bring about higher prices. However, I am not sure how this will effect RED as it will be a new technology and those who can afford the higher price may initially go with field proven systems.

I think that when the dust clears, you will see 35mm cameras going for less. What / where RED will price out for is still to be determined.

One thing is for certain, as quality HD acquisition becomes cheaper, more and more people will get in the game. Look at YouTube as an example of the exteme! Content is going to become more important in this field.

I sure hope that more good scripts and concepts get developed, as I for one am inundated with poor quality programming choices, HD, Film or whatever.

Sorry for the digression of thought.

Cheers,
G
 
G.A. Kokes said:
Emmanuel,

I sure hope that more good scripts and concepts get developed, as I for one am inundated with poor quality programming choices, HD, Film or whatever.

G
Click to expand...

And I sure hope your clients don't hang around here to read this…:)
 
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