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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What will *you* rent it for?

What will *you* rent it for?

  • Total voters
    303
Just an up-date

Not one owner/operator has contacted me willing to give a 1% rental. I get PM'ed all day.

New thought

Are we going to separate the cost of the data management thing from the cost of the camera. Show up and tell the person that hired us, "Hey pal the data thing is your problem, I'm just the camera guy."

I can see if your doing a 1 or 2 day thing, but if it goes over that @ 4k, your talking TB's of data for a feature film.

Do you guys think they're separate from one another, and should be treated as such.

Having said that, do you think the guy who hired us would see it that way?

I would like to know what you think.
 
Top shelf rate card?

Top shelf rate card?

Wow don't use that rate card as a typical movie deal for mid and low budgets.

Those rates for some of the kit are well over the top!

For example a $18k return in a single month for the srw1/pci recorder that costs around $100k including flight case batteries ect. (which were extra on the quote)

Standard rate to mates for SRW1/PC1 in Europe is £350 (great deal). But lets take no deal £450 per day rate x four day week equals around US $12k
But you were being quoted 1.5x that...

Same with the Viper!


One thing you'll find with Viper and SRW1 kit is that there is not much of it around to rent.

Supply can quickly dry up if a couple of movies are shooting at the same time.

But offer them half those rates in the low season and they won't put hangup on you.

Alternatively rent it from Europe!


Mike Brennan
 
Dominoes

Dominoes

adobeone said:
Just an up-date

Not one owner/operator has contacted me on the 1% thing.
Click to expand...

Rental Truths from European Perspective
To state the obvious, anyone who rents kit is in competition with everyone else who rents kit in their catchment.


Hence most companies in a particular region are adversly affected if a poorly run rental company over time, cuts prices to get volume of work and goes bankrupt leaving a continued expectation of low rates in its wake.


Owner operator tip, price the kit at what everyone else is pricing it at and mark up your labour, you're worth it, because rental facilities care more about "the bottom line" than "crossing the line".




Mike Brennan
 
adobeone said:
Not one owner/operator has contacted me willing to give a 1% rental. I get PM'ed all day.
Click to expand...

adobeone, you may have scared off some RED owners with your post at the beginning of this thread.

adobeone said:
We at this stage don't really know what the true cost of the workflow is, data management, output, there's no spool of exposed negative or tape stock to cover your ass here. One bad drive and your screwed, as a Producer your camera is like 1/80th of my film's day cost. And if it screw's up! Guess who I'm coming after to pay for my re-shoot. If you can't pay for it I assure you, your camera is going home with me, and then-some.
Click to expand...
 
Goin off that last quote..

If you buy Kodak film.. and your loader loads it backwards.. You cant go after him to pay for the cost.. Obviously he will get the boot.. But he is not responsible for the ruined shoot.
 
Guys...Guys.... You have to let that go. It was a hypothetical design to get you to think outside your comfort zone. Get you to think, not in the terms as Zakaree has stated above, 400 feet of film totaling 5 min. of footage.

But barring the responsibility, of entire films footage on an array under you direct control every day for most of the day. You can't have one without the other.

It doesn't matter if the guy you work for has insurance. Again it's his desire for litigation. So prudence would dictate that you cover your ass. You cover your ass with systems, procedures, and personnel. Which cost money, these expenses must be off set in the rates you charge.

Am I wrong about this stuff Zakaree?

What about you Curran, have you considered this stuff in your business model?

I'm not doing this so I can prove how smart I am. I know how smart I am.

I've learned so much from this site, my technical knowledge has grown in leaps and bounds. All I can contribute is knowledge of what's on the other side of the line.
 
adobeone said:
Are we going to separate the cost of the data management thing from the cost of the camera. Show up and tell the person that hired us, "Hey pal the data thing is your problem, I'm just the camera guy."
Click to expand...

I foresee this as part of my remit as digital imaging technician. The hire of the camera and myself is one part of it. I will also provide equipment for backing up footage for the customer and offer a range of suitable methods for different budgets. I will cost up the equipment that is required for backup and advise the customer. Payment for such equipment will be made before the shoot begins and ownership of it will belong to the client. I will also check all equipment meets my own exacting standards before submitting it for field use.

So yes data management will be a seperate thing in terms of the cost of the equipment for me, the actual handling of it will included in the hire of equipment and myself as DIT.
 
It's actually very simple.

Projects with decent budgets, for the most part, shoot 35mm.

Here in New York, the commercial market is MOSTLY 35mm.

The RED CAMERA is the most HIGHLY ANTICIPATED, BUZZED AND COVETED PIECE OF CINEMA HARDWARE EVER!

So, UNTIL the SUPPLY meets the DEMAND - the "package price" for the providng the cameras AND the data management ("processing") simply needs to be the SAME as it would cost to do the project in 35mm - because you can make an "ease of workflow" arguement - in addition to speed of delivery.

I am willing to wager that I can "process" footage from the days shoot on my 17" powerbook faster than you can WRITE UP CAMERA REPORTS & PURCHASE ORDER, TRANSPORT TO LAB, PROCESS AND TELECINE, TRANSPORT TO EDIT ROOM OR PRODUCTION OFFICE, DIGITIZE, etc. etc.

Too many people are getting hung up on HD rates - Varicam, Viper, etc. - yeah VIPER is IMHO a GREAT HD camera - but it ain't 4K and it ain't shootin' to COMPACT FLASH CARDS - if you know what I'm sayin!!

Until Jim ships over 5-600 cameras - this is about 35mm prices. Period.

And yes, I mean the TOTAL COST of film stock, processing, loader, etc.
 
I plan to provide 4 different levels of service and to use the RED-RAM solid-state recording medium. The RED-RAM gets backed up to the RAID1 storage system. I'm not sure what other precautions could be taken.

Level 1 Rental (1%?): It must be a fully-insured production with my RED package included in the insurance at twice its cost until RED is readily available. I must be allowed on the production set so I can learn some new skills by watching some professionals in action. Maybe travel expenses and a place to stay would also have to be included.

Level 2 Rental: RED/View Factor tech. I will work with DIT to show how everything gets set up including the software for meta data, lens data, and MoCo data. I will also work with the camera op., AC, and DP to help in setting up the desired camera configurations, monitoring options, and remote follow focus controls/monitoring. At this rate I am willing to work with low-budget indies, commercials, etc..

Level 3 Rental: DIT/workflow manager for backing up footage on-set and dealing with technical and software issues related to RED, Redcine, Redcode + metadata, Cooke's iTech. lens data, and VFS Mirus MoCo and Impero remote FIZ data. I will provide instant RedQuick (Quicktime) files of any requested clips for review on-set. I will also provide a RAID1 backup system on the set to store all incoming footage. At the end of the day of shooting the footage will be transcoded via Redcine to any format requested and copied to storage media provided by the client. Depending on the amount of footage and the format requested, it may take up to 12? hours for delivery.

Level 4: art co-director (working with director/DP and camera op.) providing innovative ideas for working with the RED/MoCo rig. I will also help in setting up the post-production workflow including compositing of live action footage, background plates, and 3D elements using the MoCo/lens data. This package also includes the DIT/workflow manager Level 2 and 3 service.
 
Thanks Mark

They thought I was a soul sucking black hearted bastard, nice to know I am not alone, Hey Mark we have a support group that meets in D.C. Large white building big dome can't miss it.

He's write and he deserves every penny.

Side bar Mark I heard the color app in FCS2, was more show than go, could you PM me if you get a chance and let me know.
 
I understand where you are coming from Mark but I feel that exploiting the camera early on like this will only lead more productions to simply invest in their own rather than hiring in the future.

If a production company is spending 4 or 5 times the value of the camera renting it then one day they'll just say "forget it, lets just get our own, if we break em we'll just buy some new ones from Cali".

It seems there are more people here that are worried about others going too low. Personally I'm more worried about others going too high. If the industry looks at the rental of a red package as being out of sync with the cost of the equipment they will dump rental like a hot potato. Every production company worth their salt will simply buy one and whilst there might be a few renters who, during the initial period, cash in with over pricing, the net result will be to minimise the eventual value of rental. Bringing on those lower prices earlier and lower than necessary.

Lets not forget Mark, it's only about 6 months between you getting yours and people being able to buy direct from Red. Some productions might even wait that long, others, if they don't see any difference in rental price between Red and 35mm film will simply continue to use film, rather than risk on a format they aren't 100% can deliver what they require.

Revolution seems to be a common word used around RedOne, yet for some reason a lot seem stuck in the common way of overpricing rental. Why shouldn't the 'Revolution' spill over into that market as much as it will the owner market?

To overprice would be a wasted opportunity for owners of Red products to alter the landscape of rental and filmmaking in my opinion.
 
Paul, I think what Jim had in mind was a camera that everyone could afford. I doubt he cares what the rental market will do.

Remember, that comparing RED with 35mm -equipment aside - RED will save them considerable money on film, processsing, telecine, etc.

If comparing with other digital cameras like Viper or F900, look at the quality of image and features and output considerations.

Again, it's about VALUE not 1% of cost.

The 1% "standard" won't happen until the market shakes out and the dust settles. I think initially owner/ops who are DITs who can offer a good price and a bulletproof workflow who have organized a good backup plan will do very well and should be compensated accordingly.

Producers wil still reap tremensous benefits in savings of film costs, high quality images and increased flexibility and speed of workflow.

The rental price will settle as the market adjusts on it's own. I think if one is buying RED just for the rental market and not supplying DIT services they might have a rough time of it over the long haul.

RED is a camera designed to bring the power of moviemaking into the hands of more filmmakers than any camera ever made.

As far as rentals - everyone will have to create their own paradigm in their little sphere of influence. I don't think RED will fit into industry rental standards for quite a while.
 
"Hey pal the data thing is your problem, I'm just the camera guy"

YES !! you got it ...
as DP i don't have time to do data - render to whatever .. they can hire somebody or perhaps post houses will fill the gap or they can have the editor take care of duping ??? the data management will be discussed in pre production and we'll come up with something but it will NOT be the DP doing it ( when i'm DP) ..
for 4k, once CF cards hit 16 gig they can BUY them and that is their MASTER ... for 2k, 4/8gig should provide a good amount of minutes and again they BUY the card and that is the master = no duping on set ...
 
PaulClements said:
I understand where you are coming from Mark but I feel that exploiting the camera early on like this will only lead more productions to simply invest in their own rather than hiring in the future.

If a production company is spending 4 or 5 times the value of the camera renting it then one day they'll just say "forget it, lets just get our own, if we break em we'll just buy some new ones from Cali".

It seems there are more people here that are worried about others going too low. Personally I'm more worried about others going too high. If the industry looks at the rental of a red package as being out of sync with the cost of the equipment they will dump rental like a hot potato. Every production company worth their salt will simply buy one and whilst there might be a few renters who, during the initial period, cash in with over pricing, the net result will be to minimise the eventual value of rental. Bringing on those lower prices earlier and lower than necessary.

Lets not forget Mark, it's only about 6 months between you getting yours and people being able to buy direct from Red. Some productions might even wait that long, others, if they don't see any difference in rental price between Red and 35mm film will simply continue to use film, rather than risk on a format they aren't 100% can deliver what they require.

Revolution seems to be a common word used around RedOne, yet for some reason a lot seem stuck in the common way of overpricing rental. Why shouldn't the 'Revolution' spill over into that market as much as it will the owner market?

To overprice would be a wasted opportunity for owners of Red products to alter the landscape of rental and filmmaking in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Well Paul -

#1: what "overpriced" is - is subjective. what's your EXPERTISE worth? what's your TIME / OPPORTUNITY COST worth? there IS NOT YET a SINGLE 4K RED CAMERA for RENT on the martket - so ... how can you know what "overpriced" is?

#2: As for "exploiting the camera early on like this will only lead more productions to simply invest in their own rather than hiring in the future."

well, a far as I am concerned, that breaks down like this -

"exploiting the camera early on like this" - huh? what's the EXPLOITING PART? you mean to get the highest price the market will bear is "exploiting"? Or, do you mean charging more than YOU are comfortable with is exploiting?

I get a lot of calls from people who want to get their hands on #6 and #7, and more people call every day. Yeah, it's exciting. But I have not said yes, or even quoted a single potential client - mainly because I don't have the cameras yet, and I want to do some shooting with the Offhollywood staff & team - I am telling everybody that we do not have RATES - we bid on a project to project bases with the RED cameras, workflow and post - and we will NOT bid until we have shot with the cameras and can show the potential clients footage. Our footage.


as for "will only lead more productions to simply invest in their own rather than hiring in the future." -

Paul ... that IS the future.
 
Everyone is talking so much about how great the rental market will be in the first 4 months.

Really?

Maybe in NY, LA and Austin. Here in Portland I'm concerned. I've heard way too many "pros" in the area take on strong "wait and see" attitudes. I'm worried I'll be high and dry in my rental efforts until a ton of cameras flood the market providing proof of reliability and a ready supply of backup cameras.

Any tips on how to encourage first adopter renters without lowering prices?
 
Shawn Nelson wrote:

Any tips on how to encourage first adopter renters without lowering prices?
Click to expand...

"The proof is in the pudding"

This is where the debates come in to whether you will just be shooting footage with your RED One and handing CF cards to clients or are you going to be fully capable of delivering a project start to finish. I believe we'll find that most people will adapt to the camera operating portion of RED One farely easy, especially if they come from a film background versus only digital mediums. The real challenge for most will be understanding workflow and post operations and accessing the resources to pull it off efficiently. OffHollywood is very wise for stating that no prices will even be quoted until they have their own footage to exhibit. That process is going to take REDusers not only learning the camera but learning 4K inside and out/pros and cons/struggles and payoffs. I'm sure you will find a market for clients that will accept footage being "handed over" but the true work will be from pre to post. There are going to people shooting RED and there are going to be RED artists.
 
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