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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What will *you* rent it for?

What will *you* rent it for?

  • Total voters
    303
Ok I am starting to learn here, so thanks! If you guys are doing all the post-processing and editing of the film included in that price than holy moly that is a heck of a steal! But i somehow doubt that is the case so your knowledge of the workflow isn't really relevant.

And ibloom i'm sorry my answers were just bologna.

I understand the risk you guys are putting out and don't discredit it.

but please, for the last time: I am not expecting to rent the red in any form for $500 a day. I realize that! But anything like 2k a day (unless it goes beyond simple rental and operation) just seems too inflated to hold. I'm not saying you SHOULDNT charge that if you CAN... I'm simply saying that at first, I personally am of the opinion that in the CANADIAN film market (I really have no experience at all with anything made in the US or abroad) these rental prices won't sustain themselves.
 
Hi,

I know people who have made 35mm features for $100,000. Clearly shooting 4K digital won't be as cheap as many people had hoped. Films will continue be made in all formats from DV to 65mm film for some time to come.

Stephen
 
Nathan, if there are no cameras available for purchase and immediate delivery, then our entrepreneuring brothers can ask what their black hearts desire. And they just might get it, considering the alternatives. I'm just happy J. Jannard is cut from a different cloth, otherwise we'd all still be looking at 1/3inch sensors.
 
Bill
First I love Canada.

I came at this as a producer, not as an owner and operator. I think we all agree that territorial viewpoint, has been expertly covered by Ian.

You guy's got to get passed that, camera body,lens viewfinder, battery,and hard drive mentality. It's workflow and data management. They're not mutually exclusive. You can't have one without the other.

The phone is going to ring, and the guy or gal on the other end is going ask what they need. They don't know what you know, and it is your ethical responsibility to be frank.

You have to have one if not two additional drives.
You got to have a guy downloading and backing up the data.
Down coding for the companies future offline edit.
We haven't even gotten to the cost of the hardware do that.
How much of what is above going to cost you.

Bill I know your capable, but shit you don't have clones working for free.

I'm a Producer baby, and I'm good because, I hire good people and let them do there jobs. And right now were behind schedule, because my Actress refuses to come out of the trailer... The caterer looks like they may be late, and my boys need to eat... SAG on my ass because my Actor had to travel further than we said he have to, so I got pay a penalty... Or any number of emergency's that happen everyday all day.

Whether your just a part of, or you're the whole camera department my film and the considerable investment I have spent. Is in the 1's and 0's in zooming and turning in your system.

And for you or any owner and operator to bare that responsibility, and liability that goes with that. Is worth more the 500.00, 1000.00, 1500.00 dollars a day
 
Bill, I love you man

And your sentiments a warming my black heart.

Kinda feel like the Grinch, at the end of the second act of the movie.

Don't tell anybody though, I don't want my blood thirsty, artist soul sucking black hole of a Producer reputation, tarnished in anyway.

I had to steel allot of candy from babies, and yes I've tied my far share of school teachers to rail road tracks. To get it to bone chilling status.


•••• Why do they bury Producers 18 feet deep ?••••
 
man adobeone you must be bi-polar or something, haha... i mean that in the best way possible! (I'm sure half of all acclaimed directors/producers/artists are bi-polar)


.
 
Hi adobeone,
I'll ask again,can we see your stuff. You mentioned
that you put a film together for $100K or am I wrong.
do you have a website. I'd be interested to see what you
can do for that kind of money in the US.
Thanks Mezmo
BTW rental companies will set the price for Red IMHO.
just follow or come in a little cheaper.
 
Mezmo

The film I did was called Eddie's Night out and I shot it for Just under 50,000 dollars. I'm in post-production now. I'm still getting a site up, with all the stuff I'm doing. I'm getting private message, with the same request. (side bar here I've fallen behind on returning them, but I will)

So I'll try to get a myspace page up by Monday, and you can see a teaser trailer.

As far as the 100,000 goes that was an exercise, for Nathan's movie he wants to do next year. further back in the thread, Joe correctly pointed out that I was missing a few things in that post. I haven't read Nathan's screenplay, so there is allot of unknowns. The technology has made it possible to make that kind of budget work. Every price I used I can get.

So can you, knowing were to spent it is the art. Which thankfully for the future of this business, and great gifts that some move deliver, is personally attainable, or finically acquirable. Gibby, Brook, Ian, and yes evan Dave down under. Maybe not Gibby he sold out Mr. Busy, Mister "I got to make my mortgage payment and fallow my dream."

I don't sound bitter do I.

LA user group rocks, Which if you have taken anything away from this, it was Shane V8f who started the ball rolling.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
I can see reservation holders charging a huge premium for use of their RED... Work it, baby! Work it.. Milk it for all it's worth!

But once demand levels off I don't see some of these hopeful prices really working out. RED's image quality and other advantages can only go so far to inflate the rental price. There is a "breaking point" where people are just going to say "f--- you, I'll buy my own". If renting a camera body costs someone 60% or more of buying their own over a couple weeks, they're not going to rent.

Due to RED's low price point, I don't think we're going to see many camera body or bare-bones rentals out there. Rental houses are going to make rental packages with the camera and they're going to make money on what they rent you along with the camera. People won't want to pay $1500/day for a $17.5K camera body. But they may gladly pay $3000-$5000 or more per day for the camera with premium production pack accessories, Arri mattebox, cooke prime set, O'Connor 2060 w/sticks, a few batteries, charger, RED DRIVEs, and FLASH module... Maybe even a nicely configured Macbook Pro already loaded with REDCINE and other workflow tools.

I'm seriously wondering if a small outfit or independent RED owners can even justify or realistically expect to rent out their RED kits once demand settles. A rental house that can configure various RED rental packages and provide the service and support plans, insurance, etc... will do just fine. But I don't see how someone who owns a camera, a few batteries, a tripod system, and a few lenses (especially if they're still / SLR lenses) can offer enough options to keep that camera busy enough to make money and support it, insure it, etc..

To me, an independent or small boutique that rents out RED will be doing it occasionally, when the cameras are not busy, just to bring in a few extra bucks. Those in that situation who are trying to make a business plan out of renting RED probably won't do so hot. I just don't see it... The camera will make more money if you just pick it up and use it.

That's my opinion... At least for tonight. And I'm tired and grumpy.
Click to expand...

Right now I have no slam-dunk way to make money in the film industry, or at least not enough money to be worth my while honestly, but I do believe the RED will change that. I don't think it's naive or overly optimistic to think that a good businessman offering the right tools and services can make a very nice profit off a RED package.

But what I agree with you on is offering some selection and services. I want to make sure I have everything someone needs to shoot, not only every lens available but also a top-of-the-line tripod, I already have a new and fully loaded MacBook Pro with software, and I want to make sure that between my friend and I we have at least one backup RED body in case of failure. I also want to offer a variety of recording options so that someone who rents from me isn't limited to just one, but can decide how they would like to shoot.

I have to go against the grain here a bit and say I laugh at the notion that small operators or owners can't compete with big rental companies in price, and shouldn't try. I mean literally that makes me laugh out loud -- it's the other way around. They can't compete with me, and shouldn't even try. They offer many more products, many more options, and a reliable name that is trusted in the industry, let's say, all GREAT things! And good reasons to use them. But they can't hope to compete with any private owner or operator in price, haha, what a joke. Not even close. Their overhead is vastly above what mine is. If they tried to compete with everyone like me out there who has limited overhead they would go out of business. Where big rental companies excel is being well known, trusted companies that are ideal for major productions to use. I am not trying to be the guy who rents the RED for Spider-Man 4 or something, haha, I'm trying to be the guy who rents to the mid-level music video, or the small commercial shoot, or an indie feature, or a PSA, etc. I can't compete with a major rental company on major productions. But they can't compete with me on small productions, and shouldn't bother trying, either. It's just different segments of the market. It's hard to be all things to all people, that's all I'm saying.

I haven't decided yet how I'll go about pricing a rental package, I really need to see more what other people are doing and how I can offer an attractive deal that (if the producer wants) includes additional services like on-set logging and capturing, backup, etc. I was thinking that at most for the equipment itself I would charge $1,500 per day with three-day weeks, one-day weekends ($1,500 gets you the package for a weekend), etc. But a lot of people would probably say that is way too low of a price, though I can't say I agree. It's a matter of how often I can rent it out, too.

I feel like what I would be offering would be a fair price, basically you'd get an on-site laptop for capturing, an HD reference monitor, a great tripod, follow focus, matte box, prime lens set, two zoom lenses anyway (18-50 and 50-150), probably four batteries and two chargers, whatever recording media you'd prefer (I might say you get two RED Drives standard, but if you want another option it costs more), the LCD screen, EVF, production pack, etc. I think that for $1,500 per day that's an excellent deal, and since if you want it for a five-day week you're going to pay about $900 per day after the discount, that's pretty much an awesome deal compared to what some people want to charge.

At the same time, as I figure, you're talking about roughly $85,000 or so in equipment, give or take a bit, so this 1% idea some people are throwing around is idiotic beyond belief if you're talking about actually pricing $85,000 in equipment to $850 per day, then discounting from there. No chance. I don't know where you see that, I've never seen that. I've seen rental companies charging $200 to rent an XL-2, which is a $3,000 camera, my math IS a little shaky sometimes but I'm pretty sure that's not 1% of the camera's price. In fact... not even close. You think the RED will ever rent for $175 a day for jus the body? I think you're probably insane, and should re-consider what industry you want to be in. $350 for just the body? Yeah, sure, not including anything else whatsoever, sure. That's more realistic perhaps after demand and supply are more equal. But the 1% idea, no, and also nobody would make a business out of that. It'd be lame.

Now in my case if you're getting the package for $900 per day with the discount, and I paid about 100 times that much for it, that's about 1% -- but that's because you're renting everything at once, so you get a great discount. But if someone wanted to rent just my RED body and said they'd pay me $170 I'd laugh and say go home little boy.

The reason I think my price is fair is because it's a good balance between making my money back in a reasonable period of time yet not charging anyone so much they may as well buy it. I could rent someone all of that equipment for let's say $15,000 for a month and still feel good about it. I'd have $15,000 in my pocket, which would pay back a bit under 20% of what I paid, but there's no way the production can say they'd have been better off buying it because that would cost them 5-6 times what they paid me, and they'd have to deal with storing it, renting it out themselves, selling it later, whatever. If you shoot for let's say 4-6 weeks per year and you pay my prices, you're going to have to wait about five years to be able to say "I could have bought it with all I spent on rentals," only in five years no doubt a lot of that equipment would need to be replaced or upgraded, etc. Seems pretty fair to me.

But if everyone else is still charging outrageous sums of money I will not undercut anyone severely, I'm not out for price wars, I want to offer a good overall experience and service. I'd prefer that than just renting the equipment, like really know the ins and outs of shooting in 4K and the workflow, then make my clients very happy with the service they get, not rely on just poor, pathetic producers trying to get a break renting my equipment only because it's cheap. That's not what I'd prefer.

This was a great thread, btw, read every page.
 
Hi adobeone,
Thanks for the info on "Eddie's Night Out",look forward
to seeing the trailer up on Myspace.
Don't forget about things like E & O Insurance if your
going out via cable, free to air or theatrical.
Can be a little expensive if you have a lot of uncleared
stuff in the finished flick.
To get a quick uncomplicated sale it can be good to
have that particular house in order.
Cheers Mezmo.
 
In Sweden a Sony Cinealta 24P HDW 900 production set goes for about $1400/day (with Pro35 and HS Primes), operator not included (of course).

I can not (at all) see why a RED premium pack should go under that price.
 
JNAD said:
In Sweden a Sony Cinealta 24P HDW 900 production set goes for about $1400/day (with Pro35 and HS Primes), operator not included (of course).

I can not (at all) see why a RED premium pack should go under that price.
Click to expand...

Well it just plainly shouldn't… that's why.
 
Exactly. I don't care what the F900 costs, it could cost $2 billion, it still shouldn't rent for more than the RED because compared to the RED it's a child's plaything not suited for shooting wedding videos or your dog running around the back yard, let's be honest. It was nice when it came out, and that was a freakin' LONG time ago in digital years. It served its purpose well, and before the RED ships continues to be a nice tool. That being said, there's no reason whatsoever to use something bulky, expensive, and outdated any further when a much better alternative exists that offers you more flexibility.

The cost of something is relevant to its rental price, sure, but only to a degree. When you're talking about something that is old, like the F900, its previous cost is completely irrelevant to its current value in the marketplace. Its value has been undermined by superior technology that happens to be much cheaper. Does that mean the RED should necessarily rent for more than the F900 at its peak? No. Does that mean the F900 should plummet in what it costs to rent because its value can't match new technology that is cheaper? Yes, absolutely.

If the RED rents for $500 per day for just the body and a viewfinder, let's say, the F900 should rent for about $300 a day. I don't care what it costs, that's absolutely irrelevant. They better have it paid for by this point, that should have been built into the business plan. Everyone knows that when you were buying digital technology that was rapidly improving, you're not going to expect that a piece of equipment like that will still be suitable a decade down the road. It's the same with computers. I paid $9,000 for a 2.5 Ghz dual G5 a few years ago with 8 gigs of RAM. You can get a better desktop now for like $4,000. If I rented out my computer, should I charge more for it than a new, better computer just because I paid more? Of course not. That's totally illogical.
 
JonathanLB said:
Exactly. I don't care what the F900 costs, it could cost $2 billion, it still shouldn't rent for more than the RED because compared to the RED it's a child's plaything not suited for shooting wedding videos or your dog running around the back yard, let's be honest. It was nice when it came out, and that was a freakin' LONG time ago in digital years. It served its purpose well, and before the RED ships continues to be a nice tool. That being said, there's no reason whatsoever to use something bulky, expensive, and outdated any further when a much better alternative exists that offers you more flexibility.

The cost of something is relevant to its rental price, sure, but only to a degree. When you're talking about something that is old, like the F900, its previous cost is completely irrelevant to its current value in the marketplace. Its value has been undermined by superior technology that happens to be much cheaper. Does that mean the RED should necessarily rent for more than the F900 at its peak? No. Does that mean the F900 should plummet in what it costs to rent because its value can't match new technology that is cheaper? Yes, absolutely.

If the RED rents for $500 per day for just the body and a viewfinder, let's say, the F900 should rent for about $300 a day. I don't care what it costs, that's absolutely irrelevant. They better have it paid for by this point, that should have been built into the business plan. Everyone knows that when you were buying digital technology that was rapidly improving, you're not going to expect that a piece of equipment like that will still be suitable a decade down the road. It's the same with computers. I paid $9,000 for a 2.5 Ghz dual G5 a few years ago with 8 gigs of RAM. You can get a better desktop now for like $4,000. If I rented out my computer, should I charge more for it than a new, better computer just because I paid more? Of course not. That's totally illogical.
Click to expand...

Hi Jonthan,

The F900R is actually a very new camera, not all F900's are equal.

Stephen
 
1% more or less....

1% more or less....

JonathanLB said:
....At the same time, as I figure, you're talking about roughly $85,000 or so in equipment, give or take a bit, so this 1% idea some people are throwing around is idiotic beyond belief if you're talking about actually pricing $85,000 in equipment to $850 per day, then discounting from there. No chance. I don't know where you see that, I've never seen that. I've seen rental companies charging $200 to rent an XL-2, which is a $3,000 camera, my math IS a little shaky sometimes but I'm pretty sure that's not 1% of the camera's price. In fact... not even close. You think the RED will ever rent for $175 a day for jus the body? I think you're probably insane, and should re-consider what industry you want to be in. $350 for just the body? Yeah, sure, not including anything else whatsoever, sure. That's more realistic perhaps after demand and supply are more equal. But the 1% idea, no, and also nobody would make a business out of that. It'd be lame.
Click to expand...

Jonathon, you seem to be calling me or my post insane and idiotic?

The fact is that 1% per day is a industry standard rate for pro kit for a good commercial return. Owner operators then discount this rate, as bits of the kit, like lighting and tripod and grip kit get paid off over time.


It is dangerous to compare rates in his thread as RED users package value can vary between $30 to $100k.
And established operators with existing lenses and tripods can discount the total package rate.

That is why the % figure is used by leasing companies.

Jonathon, comparing rates for DV equipment is not sound as DV is amortized over a shorter period thus has a higher daily rate for many reasons, including shorter life expectancy, whereas life expectancy of pro kit especially lenses is much longer.

There are exceptions with new technology due to supply and demand which I have had many years of experience.
When I imported the first Jimmy Jib to Europe I got 3% for the daily rate until a half dozen more were imported a year later.

When I bought the first f900 as a DP owner operater in Europe, the demand for its use was low and the reverse happend to the daily rate. I've rarely achieved 1% for my f900 kit by the way.


Rates for rental equipment is dictated by supply and demand and cost of the equipment.

Linking rates in the long term to the quality of picture has yet to succeed, so please keep me informed of you rate discussions with producers!

Goota go, time for my medication :)


Mike Brennan
 
Well the 900R still records 1440x1080 with 8 bit compression to tape at a write speed of 145/Mb/sec. That's old technology. Updated with HD-SDI out saves a few grand by not buying an outboard downconverter, but it still lists at $79,900. Sony has even listed B stock on the 900/H at $53,900. WAAAY too much. Now the Panny 3000 is supposedly $51,000 with the Intra board and it is only 1920x1080. The rental rates on these are going to HAVE to go down once Red has it's first thousand or so units delivered.

There are few of us however who will be able to competently act as DIT's for the camera units, and related workflows, so it's certainly going to be interesting to see how demand will work as far as including a hire for the owner to be the DIT. There's too much at stake when you're spending tens or hundreds of thousands per day.

Maybe there's an ancillary business for Jarred et al in the workshop arena for certification on the Red? After all, he's done it before, and I wouldn't doubt he hasn't already thought of it.
 
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