What will *you* rent it for?

[Rob Powell]

Rental house vs. User

Rental house vs. User

If I have understood correctly the rates and equipment on offer, I seriously doubt that in the long run all producers/DPs will pay a daily rate of $1500 for an electronic camera body that even with with a viewfinder drive and batteries is valued at under $30k.
That appears to be around 5% (of value) per day rate!

Historicaly 1% per day was the ideal figure to aim at for electronic kit on the basis of 100 days rental per year and likleyhood of it being superceded in three to four years.

I think the 1% rule is the closest parameter you'll find to where things will eventually shake out. We've rented Viper cameras for around $1200/day which is approx. 1%. BUT there are many factors that affect the rental price of an item. There are fewer Viper cameras, so demand and availability affects the price too. With 2,000 Red cameras in the market by mid '08, the window for high dollar rentals is small.

BUT, I do think there is validity to considering the VALUE of the Red camera/workflow and not just the purchase price. If the camera and workflow meet our expectations, then demand may drive the price higher.

Rental houses have different business objective than owners/users. Rental houses want to turn the gear as often and quickly as possible to recover their investment and then make a profit. A camera on a shelf is worth nothing. Thus, they are much more agressive in pricing.

Historically, users who rent their gear charge more and are usually more restrictive about who they rent to. I'll often pay a higher fee for a local user's gear, because you save on freight (Fedex charges on Anvil cases REALLY add up!) and have a local contact in case of problems. IMO owner/renters should not try to compete with rental houses, because they can't afford to take the same risks.

Our plan is to rent very little and only with a company rep on-site. Since rental is not our primary business, the extra income isn't worth the risk. We also plan to have a complete post workflow in place that will hopefully pull renters into that, more profitable, income stream.

All-in-all, the marketplace will force us all to find common ground. So, let's all keep the prices high for as long as possible. Our target is going to be around $1500/ day. "Curses on you $500 /day spoilers.":ranting2:

RA Post

 

[Nathan Buxton]

At $1500 a day, the production will have paid for the camera in only 20 days of shooting. That is just plain rude. That is taking advantage of a monopoly. Just because the cameras are impossible to purchase "day-of" doesn't mean you guys need to triple your investment three fold in the first 6 months. I find that very disheartening.

I was picturing the RED camera to be a tool for low-budget productions. Sure, a large production company will pay $1500 a day, but I assure you no indie producer with a budget under $100,000 will pay that. They can simply use another medium.

I am planning on shooting a low budget feature film in early 2008, and i would LOVE to use the red one. But not if i have to pay 1/20th of the price of the camera every single day we use it. What happened to the spirit of film making? This isn't ONLY a business after all.

If everyone here bought a red one reservation in hopes of "getting-rich-quick," than i disrespect that greatly.

 

[Matthew Lochman]

At $1500 a day, the production will have paid for the camera in only 20 days of shooting. That is just plain rude. That is taking advantage of a monopoly. Just because the cameras are impossible to purchase "day-of" doesn't mean you guys need to triple your investment three fold in the first 6 months. I find that very disheartening.

I was picturing the RED camera to be a tool for low-budget productions. Sure, a large production company will pay $1500 a day, but I assure you no indie producer with a budget under $100,000 will pay that. They can simply use another medium.

I am planning on shooting a low budget feature film in early 2008, and i would LOVE to use the red one. But not if i have to pay 1/20th of the price of the camera every single day we use it. What happened to the spirit of film making? This isn't ONLY a business after all.

If everyone here bought a red one reservation in hopes of "getting-rich-quick," than i disrespect that greatly.

But I thought that Jim was making this camera because he was a lonely, rich, camera junky and wanted some homies...

 

[Julian Banos]

Nathan,

Eventually with so many cameras on the market the price will come down. But I dont think its that terrible for people to profit on such a great product. I think the higher the ROI on a RED the more people will buy more RED products (think of how many 4k projectors to independent cinemas can be sold). And I think this a fair reward for people who:
a) are producing a revolutionary product and
b) people who had the foresight to reserve early.

 

[Ramesh Jai]

At $1500 a day, the production will have paid for the camera in only 20 days of shooting. That is just plain rude. That is taking advantage of a monopoly. Just because the cameras are impossible to purchase "day-of" doesn't mean you guys need to triple your investment three fold in the first 6 months. I find that very disheartening.

I was picturing the RED camera to be a tool for low-budget productions. Sure, a large production company will pay $1500 a day, but I assure you no indie producer with a budget under $100,000 will pay that. They can simply use another medium.

I am planning on shooting a low budget feature film in early 2008, and i would LOVE to use the red one. But not if i have to pay 1/20th of the price of the camera every single day we use it. What happened to the spirit of film making? This isn't ONLY a business after all.

If everyone here bought a red one reservation in hopes of "getting-rich-quick," than i disrespect that greatly.

I totally support you on that.

 

[Andrew Benz]

Well, my investment into this system does not stop at $17,500. Like many here that investment will go significantly higher... like into the "over $100,000" for pl mount lenses (everything RED has to offer and a possible EFP/cine solution with Canon), o'conner/ronford fluid head/various sized sticks, a complete post/"on set" workflow/data management/archive (new quad core mac, monitors, etc, new lighting package (dedo/kino/etc), new audio package (sound devices/sankin/sennheiser) and all the new solutions being brought to market by Curt's View Factor Studio-- I have #24 in the Mirus line... This is just my short list... But my approach is different than many here... My point is that people looking at renting this system and cry and bitch do not have a clue as too the total investment involved.

That being said part of my work will be pro bono for certain groups ie-Veteran organisations, Performing Arts groups, etc... Also, I am leveraging my package to work with people that I really want to work with or projects that I really believe in doing. So there are many ways to look at this beyond the standard rental deal-- which I will not be doing. I am not a rental company. But I will be a gateway to great equipment and freelancers that can grow with the type and size of the project...

 

[Matthew Rogers]

I am planning on shooting a low budget feature film in early 2008, and i would LOVE to use the red one. But not if i have to pay 1/20th of the price of the camera every single day we use it. What happened to the spirit of film making? This isn't ONLY a business after all.

If everyone here bought a red one reservation in hopes of "getting-rich-quick," than i disrespect that greatly.

Actually, I would say that for most people here who are buying a RED it is a business--it sure as heck is for me. Why shouldn't those of us risking $40,000-$60,000 not be rewarded for our investment? I know a guy here that I used to work for who's still renting out his VariCams for close to $1,200 a day. It probably cost him around $80,000-$90,000 and I'd say within 2 years he had made back his investment. You've gotta remember that it's not all profit...there's upkeep on equipment, buying NEW equipment, taxes, and other business crap. Why do you expect something that is delivering quality far better than the Varicam to cost the price of a HVX? I would say anything between $1k-2k is a fair price considering the quality you will get.

I think too many people are in the mindset that the RED will be great for ultra low budget filmmaking (Under $30,000) But the only people who are going to be able to make films for that price (and look/sound good) are people who are already professionals and have access to lighting/grip/sound equipment..

Just my point of view.

Matthew

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

in agreeance macville

 

[Russ McDonald]

At $1500 a day, the production will have paid for the camera in only 20 days of shooting. That is just plain rude. That is taking advantage of a monopoly. Just because the cameras are impossible to purchase "day-of" doesn't mean you guys need to triple your investment three fold in the first 6 months. I find that very disheartening.

I was picturing the RED camera to be a tool for low-budget productions. Sure, a large production company will pay $1500 a day, but I assure you no indie producer with a budget under $100,000 will pay that. They can simply use another medium.

I am planning on shooting a low budget feature film in early 2008, and i would LOVE to use the red one. But not if i have to pay 1/20th of the price of the camera every single day we use it. What happened to the spirit of film making? This isn't ONLY a business after all.

If everyone here bought a red one reservation in hopes of "getting-rich-quick," than i disrespect that greatly.

I thought I could sit back and watch this thread from here on out and just observe. But no I am going to school Nathan in the next post, as it turns out I am an Indie Producer who has shot a film for under 100,000.

You better take notes because I about to budget your movie for you.

 

[mezmo]

Hi abobeone,
What's the name of your film,website? Where can we see it
mate.
Mezmo

 

[Nathan Buxton]

Hahahahahaha. wow!!! talk about ego trip on adobeone's part. I don't want you to school me. I won't read your next post so don't waste your breathe unless you think it will make you look better in front of your peers.

I understand the price is much more than 20,000. But, we are not talking about that. we are talking about renting the camera body, evf, and neccesary accessories. All your lenses and computers and audio gear can stay at home. If I am renting your camera i do not expect to pay dividends to your other purchases as well. Again: rude and unfair.

I believe the appropriate price for rental of neccesary camera gear only should be slightly under $1000 and with an operator be slightly under $1500. If you guys don't think that is fair than i will quit wasting my time even caring about RED. Because without giving artists gear (at a reasonable savings, which RED is supposed to be), than red is useless (until 4k projection is standard).

 

[david farland]

Nathan,
Leave my bitch alone!

He might sound like he's full of sh*t all the time...but he's actually provided a refreshing prospective missing on this techno forum and I look forward to what he has to say!

Cheers,
Dave

 

[Ryan Bedell]

A watcher weighs in

A watcher weighs in

OK. I'm East coast, non-NY. I have a full expectation that eventually I'll be able to rent a RED for less then a grand a day (3day week 10 day month) as a small but workable package.

I firmly admit that I'm a DP who's willing to work too cheaply. But that's a whole other discussion. In any event, I truly believe that the RED, once a few thousand get out in the marketplace wil be in line percentage wise with other video solutions. The chance to make money is with the add ons, the personal skill etc.

A feature film DP has no excuse settling for less then a grand a day himself without SERIOUS reasons to belive that there are other profit areas available.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Basically I'm saying this thread has told me that I'm undercharging, that RED owners will probably be overcharging in the short run and disappointed in the long run and that I REALLY need to get me some gear.

Ryan

 

[Brook Willard]

Nobody needs to school anybody. There's a way to share opinions that makes everybody happy and there's a way that leads to locked threads. Come on, guys.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

I understand the price is much more than 20,000. But, we are not talking about that. we are talking about renting the camera body, evf, and neccesary accessories. All your lenses and computers and audio gear can stay at home. If I am renting your camera i do not expect to pay dividends to your other purchases as well. Again: rude and unfair.

I believe the appropriate price for rental of neccesary camera gear only should be slightly under $1000 and with an operator be slightly under $1500. If you guys don't think that is fair than i will quit wasting my time even caring about RED. Because without giving artists gear (at a reasonable savings, which RED is supposed to be), than red is useless (until 4k projection is standard).

I guess you have never been around a rental house before. Money made off rentals go to repair the item you are renting, buying new gear, and MAKING A PROFIT! Why is it so unfair to make a good profit? I think it's unfair for you to think I should spend a buttload of money (and $40,000 is a buttload of money) and not make a good return on my investment...I mean that's what investments are all about...As much as filmmaking/video production is creative and a art form, it's still business too.

If VariCam's are still renting for $850-$1200 a day, then why shouldn't something 4 times better not be worth at least that much? If you compare the RED cost with a 35MM camera, you'll be saving a load of money. Sure the camera/accessories cost about the same per day, but there's no film cost, processing, telecine, etc. I think I saw a post the other day that said film cost for one day with processing is at least $2,000. Therefore, that's a savings of 67% PER DAY! I firmly believe that is a "reasonable" savings. I mean, tell me a producer who wouldn't like to save $2k without losing results. The thing is, the RED is really gonna make $100,000 films look like $500,000 films, not a $600 film like a $5 mil picture.

Not to be mean, but how many years have you been working in the film and or video business? I ask because I feel like from your comments that you've never really worked in it.

Matthew

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

If you feel the prices are too high for 'such an inexpensive item': Buy your own.

Easy solution.

Nobody is entitled to film equipment especially high end film equipment. It's not like your independent film is actually going to make money. 99.9% of all features made are made for fun. Or at least I hope that was the intention because they sure as hell aren't profitable.

 

[J. Bernard Vallon]

I dont think it'll be impossible for someone to get a red for the day, maybe even with lenses and reddrive, for 500 to 600 dollars. The arguement that this post is making is the extra money is for peace of mind.

As a filmmaker, DP, producer, whatever, you don't want a rental house to drop of a camera—in questionable condition—with not enough gear to make it work, and use it with a crew who've never seen a red before.

If you rent a system for $500-600, unless its from a rental house, the guy who owns it is probably not going to be able to afford to

1) regularly service it,
2) insure it properly and
3) clean the sensor and test the system every morning

between every job he/she needs to book to pay for it.

If you pay a little extra, you'd also get

1.) more reliable recording options
2.) backup equipment available
3.) onsite tech/DIT
4.) a reliable, dependable owner who is never late and can carry his weight in gear.

In order to be the later, you simply HAVE to charge a little more.

 

[Clint Johnson]

At $1500 a day, the production will have paid for the camera in only 20 days of shooting. That is just plain rude. That is taking advantage of a monopoly. Just because the cameras are impossible to purchase "day-of" doesn't mean you guys need to triple your investment three fold in the first 6 months. I find that very disheartening.

I was picturing the RED camera to be a tool for low-budget productions. Sure, a large production company will pay $1500 a day, but I assure you no indie producer with a budget under $100,000 will pay that. They can simply use another medium.

I am planning on shooting a low budget feature film in early 2008, and i would LOVE to use the red one. But not if i have to pay 1/20th of the price of the camera every single day we use it. What happened to the spirit of film making? This isn't ONLY a business after all.

If everyone here bought a red one reservation in hopes of "getting-rich-quick," than i disrespect that greatly.

A lot of the people here are never going to pay for their camera through rentals no matter how hard they try. It isn't easy to get the gigs and the bank won't listen when they say that they've only been able to book the Red for eight days out of the last two months. Rent still has to be paid and food still has to go on the table... so when you come calling with a request for $300 days, rest assured you will be able to find plenty of desperate people to take advantage of.

Hell, depending on how hard times are, you could probably find some willing to go for half that just so they can keep from having to put their Red up on eBay for another week or make their kids skip a meal.

You should find this very "heartening".

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I can see reservation holders charging a huge premium for use of their RED... Work it, baby! Work it.. Milk it for all it's worth!

But once demand levels off I don't see some of these hopeful prices really working out. RED's image quality and other advantages can only go so far to inflate the rental price. There is a "breaking point" where people are just going to say "f--- you, I'll buy my own". If renting a camera body costs someone 60% or more of buying their own over a couple weeks, they're not going to rent.

Due to RED's low price point, I don't think we're going to see many camera body or bare-bones rentals out there. Rental houses are going to make rental packages with the camera and they're going to make money on what they rent you along with the camera. People won't want to pay $1500/day for a $17.5K camera body. But they may gladly pay $3000-$5000 or more per day for the camera with premium production pack accessories, Arri mattebox, cooke prime set, O'Connor 2060 w/sticks, a few batteries, charger, RED DRIVEs, and FLASH module... Maybe even a nicely configured Macbook Pro already loaded with REDCINE and other workflow tools.

I'm seriously wondering if a small outfit or independent RED owners can even justify or realistically expect to rent out their RED kits once demand settles. A rental house that can configure various RED rental packages and provide the service and support plans, insurance, etc... will do just fine. But I don't see how someone who owns a camera, a few batteries, a tripod system, and a few lenses (especially if they're still / SLR lenses) can offer enough options to keep that camera busy enough to make money and support it, insure it, etc..

To me, an independent or small boutique that rents out RED will be doing it occasionally, when the cameras are not busy, just to bring in a few extra bucks. Those in that situation who are trying to make a business plan out of renting RED probably won't do so hot. I just don't see it... The camera will make more money if you just pick it up and use it.

That's my opinion... At least for tonight. And I'm tired and grumpy.

 

[J. Bernard Vallon]

I'm seriously wondering if a small outfit or independent RED owners can even justify or realistically expect to rent out their RED kits once demand settles.

Jeff is definitely right here. Furthermore, no matter how wonderful red is, someone will make a better camera. Maybe itll be canon, maybe sony, maybe jannard. One day, stunning image quality will be easy.

I'm not planning on being able to make a career out of owner/oping. Content generation has always been the lasting way to make money. A better camera will always be on the horizon, but there is no substitute for a fantastic DP.