What will *you* rent it for?

[Evin Grant]

On the issue of law suits stemming from crashed or corrupted drives. It doesn't matter what disclaimer you use or waiver that it signed. You venerability is tied to your clients desire for litigation. I know allot guys that just get off on it, and they have the war chest to hurt you. Unfortunately most of the ones I know are in the film business. Due diligence is the only thing in the eyes of the judge that is going to let you prevail. Due diligence is expensive if not in dollars, it is definitely when it comes to time, and time is money... So price accordingly.

This is true, but let me shed some light here...

I have been living this "Digital" life for a year and a half now with the HVX. I'll get to that in a minute but every production I've done this for, regardless of feature film or Pepsi commercial has undestood I bear no resposibility financially for hardware failure. I do make this very clear but more importantly I make the client purchase the delivery drives. So if they fail, tough luck, they're your drives not mine. As to weather or not this will be an issue with Red drives, anyone stupid enough to shoot any digital format longer than half a day without a redundant back up is asking to be sued. And most producers, even the sharks know it's not worth suing a camera man for a 1/2 day's or less footage. Let alone losing the one guy that knows the ins and outs of that production's workflow. It just doesn't make economic sense.

Furthermore I have been charging $1000-$1500 a day to do a quite a few variations on the Operator/DIT thing with the HVX. Productions pay money for piece of mind. If they think you're the shit of fuck mountain with a Red you can make bucks. But the most important thing that I've seen missing from this discussion is the creation of a workflow, and not just on the day but from the begining. Every P2 job I do the first thing I do is ask what NLE they're using. I almost always ask to speak to the editor or assistaint editor before recomending a workflow. And I never let the producer dictate the terms of my resposibility. I'm up front about what I will provide and gaurentee and preface everything with "shit happens" just not to me, yet.
I've shot maybe 4-500 hours of P2 since the HVX was introduced. I've only ever lost one card's worth of data, and that was human error I take full responsibility for.

The key here is you will be designing a new workflow for every client and every show. No matter how ubiquitos Red becomes, as an expert, and we here now are all the experts producers will be drawing from in the next few months and years, are the real power behind the camera. Because I know plenty of producers who bought the HVX thinking that they could stop hiring DPs and camera OPs, and I'm always the first on the call sheet. The B cam might be the producers but they don't dare spend all that money and not feel secure that someone on set knows what the fuck is happening when the shit hits the fan. "$9,999.00 to know which buttons to push." Damn straight.

 

[Brook Willard]

$1200.00 per day minimum for the camera body.

Thanks for posting the number, it's good to hear the range that you'll be aiming for. I've been wondering for a while.

For those that don't know, this is a figure that you'll probably become familiar with in the future. If the GM of Otto Nemenz International is thinking $1,200+ for just the body per day [plus accessories, etc.], it puts the camera in the same range as their 35mm cameras. To compare, a 3-perf LT goes for $1,650 per day and a 535B goes for $1,200.

So it looks like they won't be whoring it out [thankfully] and they won't be gouging [thankfully]. Obviously a rental house will have a more solid support infrastructure than most of us will be able to put together on our own with a personal camera, but it gives a range. You could undercut a little... you could toss in some accessories... whatever.

Know your target [Students? Independent? Commercial? TV? Documentary? Studio?] and make some money.

 

[Michael Brennan]

The below opinion about rates is most relevant to TV production within Europe.

*Compared to what is being spent on HD, RED will lead to a less money being spent on rental of camera kit with the savings and cost efficencies in the hands of the producer/rights owner.

*Aspirational RED owner operators will work more cheaply than established guys and gals.

*The larger rental companies will eventually charge RED on the same basis as other formats, 1/3% to 1% of the value of the kit per day including accessories.

*Most producers will use operators they know, well before those they haven't worked with before. Even if you have the only RED camera in town you could end up being camera tech to the favoured DP.


*If a TV production team are going to be charged more than 30% of the value of the kit in a year they will consider buying it themselves.

*RED offers significant savings for production teams who edit in house.
RED camera purchases by TV production companies could be far greater than HD where a relatively expensive cameras and under utilised tape deck fouled up a business plan for creating a complete workflow (unless a significant number of programmes were to be made). But now RED offers both low cost camera and no cost deck. Prodcution companies with a steady throughput of work making modest budget corporates an TV will own and operate themselves.

*Until cameras are readily available on the street rates will vary and perhaps polarise, as the aspirationals who want to kickstart their career will put the camera out for next to nothing to get a gig whereas experienced owner operators try and charge what the camera is worth to production rather than base it on what it costs to own.


*Those who hope that they will be highly valued for having superior knowledge with new technology overvalue the importance that most parts of the TV industry put on technical and craft expertise, as is evidenced by self shooting directors and production teams.

*Well budgeted commercials and features will continue to use existing camera talent at current labour rates regardless of format in use.

*New camera guys and gals could integrate themselves into a RED production company as the camera and workflow person rather than buy their own hardware.



Mike Brennan

 

[Antoine Baumann]

The good news is that for $500 bucks you can send a drive to a shop and have them open it up and recover all the data off the drive. (A RED drive is RAID 1, so a little more complicated but still possible.) My understanding is that most failures are recoverable in this manner.

So if you are shooting to RED Drives and transfering every half day to a RAID 0 then you should be in very good shape.

It is the opposite, RED Drives are RAID 0, and you should transfer the datas to a RAID 1 system, I think the most often possible without slowing down the shooting.

antoine.

 

[Michael Brennan]

Thanks for posting the number, it's good to hear the range that you'll be aiming for. I've been wondering for a while.

For those that don't know, this is a figure that you'll probably become familiar with in the future. If the GM of Otto Nemenz International is thinking $1,200+ for just the body per day [plus accessories, etc.].....

If I have understood correctly the rates and equipment on offer, I seriously doubt that in the long run all producers/DPs will pay a daily rate of $1500 for an electronic camera body that even with with a viewfinder drive and batteries is valued at under $30k.
That appears to be around 5% (of value) per day rate!

Historicaly 1% per day was the ideal figure to aim at for electronic kit on the basis of 100 days rental per year and likleyhood of it being superceded in three to four years.

Rates for pro electronic kit have been declining, in Europe rates for HD for TV production and low budget features have migrated down to 0.75% or below per day.



Mike Brennan




Mike Brennan

 

[Häakon]

Adobe (sorry, I couldn't find your name),

Where are you shooting?

-H

 

[Paul Hazlett]

If I have understood correctly the rates and equipment on offer, I seriously doubt that in the long run all producers/DPs will pay a daily rate of $1500 for an electronic camera body that even with with a viewfinder drive and batteries is valued at under $30k.
That appears to be around 5% (of value) per day rate!

Historicaly 1% per day was the ideal figure to aim at for electronic kit on the basis of 100 days rental per year and likleyhood of it being superceded in three to four years.

Rates for pro electronic kit have been declining, in Europe rates for HD for TV production and low budget features have migrated down to 0.75% or below per day.



Mike Brennan




Mike Brennan

How many producers even know how much Red costs?

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

On the issue of insurance and liability -I'd love to know who bonded Soderberg's film. The bond companies been extremely reticent to endorse e-workflows -i.e. without a tape or film source.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

It strikes me of the "cheapening" of this industry. I've seen it happen in audio post and looks like we'll see it in video aquisition and post as well. By cheapening, I'm referring to value being based on technology as opposed to the people using the technology. I understand that the rental business has come up with these ratios in the past, and they have probably worked out okay, but I just don't see it in the case of Red camera or any other emerging technologies. To me, there will be quite a bit of value in having a camera capable of aquiring beautiful images and a great team to make it all happen.

I'm not really that opposed to an adjustment. I can see people renting the camera for less than a Sony 900 or varicam because of the investment ratios, but to drop way way down just doesn't make sense. I think it's going to hurt the business, not help it. Producers would love to see us all undercut each other until the average prices become dirt cheap. All this does is put less money in everyone's pockets. I have no problem with fair rates. I think I charge pretty fair rates for all of my services, but I know that if I drop way below a certain threshold, it's going to be detremetal to the bigger picture.

Obviously people can charge what they want. This is a capitalistic society and everyone has a right to compete. What worries me is that our services and skills become less valued over time and that eventually it's just not worth the time and energy, no matter how much we love doing it.

Just my 2 cents.

Steve

 

[donatello b]

the US has many markets .. Otto & clairmont are based in LA . they offer their clients services that we as individual's just can't offer - those renting from them expect that service and will pay the price without complaining..
their client base is totally different then most of our client base ...

in the SF area i see individuals renting their packaged HVX's for 250 -300 day .. i see a like package at clairmont for 450 day ... depending on your client base they may or may not pay the top tier rate ?
if my client base is hi end LA commercials then they will be going to Otto's and paying whatever the price ... if my client base is low end SF cable commercials then they are going to be looking for a super deal ...

 

[Bill Anderson]

"On the issue of insurance and liability -I'd love to know who bonded Soderberg's film. The bond companies been extremely reticent to endorse e-workflows -i.e. without a tape or film source."

Why, what's so comforting about a can of exposed film (sealed with tape) compared to an immediately verifiable and backed up digital image?

 

[Russ McDonald]

Brook I'm at least a year from shooting my friend It's a huge Sci-fi action adventure. I wanted people to Bid it so they would think it through, get them outside their box. "I got a new toy, I can start a business."

I knew the pro's would come out and slap some sense into people. Many voices of reason have more weight.

I'm not sure if I'm going to animated it or do it live action. Live action would be my first choice. I'll have a site up soon.

I want to keep it here in the US ,I'm sick of guys like Bill taking the food of the plates of poor starving American crews. ( Just kidding Bill I know it's not your fault, so don't send me nice hate mail.)

Truth of the matter is I'll be Directing it, and being a Producer in name only. At the forecasted budget, if the money wants to goes offshore I don't have much of a choice.

I do however have a Stalin like rule over the format I choose to shoot in and the crew I work with. It will be Red all the way. So hope you and Gibby have valid passports. If you guys aren't too busy elsewhere.

If you are, things happen. Star's go out with different producers this can start a tragic spiral into drug crazed binges, that ends in rehab. Food poising breaks out everywhere, but thank God the camera department is spared. Productions have to shut down. No one knows how these things happen, they just do Brook.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I wiil rent my RED ONE™ rental packege € 800,00 daily.

Kit Includes:
• RED ONE™ 4K CAMERA BODY with PL lens mount + Nikon F mount
• 35mm sized 12 megapixel CMOS sensor
• RED FLASH ON-CAMERA Module (Flash Media Extra)
• RED VIEWFINDER with RED ARM adjustable arm & Interface cable
• RED 320GB DRIVES - External Mini RAID
• RED BRICK 140Wh Battery Pack(2) with RED CHARGER
• Camera - Charger LEMO Cable (10 ft)
RED RAIL Base Package including:
• RED RAIL CRADLE (battery plate & magazine adaptor)
• RED RAIL MOUNT
• RED ROD SHORT (3)
• RED GRIP HANDLE
• RED RAIL BASE PLATE
• RED PAD (shoulder pad and plate adaptor)
• RED TOP HANDLE assembly

About DIT, the video assistent, the data management/workflow, etc...
I'm still calculating the final price.

My first RED ONE™ rental package rate is valid for the period
from the end of November 2007 to the end of March 2008.
After that the price will drop but not much lower.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

I think you would be advised to provide more than 1 battery.

Stephen

I wiil rent my RED ONE™ rental packege € 800,00 daily.

Kit Includes:
• RED ONE™ 4K CAMERA BODY with PL lens mount + Nikon F mount
• 35mm sized 12 megapixel CMOS sensor
• RED FLASH ON-CAMERA Module (Flash Media Extra)
• RED VIEWFINDER with RED ARM adjustable arm & Interface cable
• RED 320GB DRIVES - External Mini RAID
• RED BRICK 140Wh Battery Pack with RED CHARGER
• Camera - Charger LEMO Cable (10 ft)
• RED RAIL Base Package including:
• RED RAIL CRADLE (battery plate & magazine adaptor)
• RED RAIL MOUNT
• RED ROD SHORT (3)
• RED GRIP HANDLE
• RED RAIL BASE PLATE
• RED PAD (shoulder pad and plate adaptor)
• RED TOP HANDLE assembly

About DIT, the video assistent, the data management/workflow, etc...
I'm still calculating the final price.

My first RED ONE™ rental package rates are valid for the period
from the end of November 2007 to the end of March 2008.
After that the price will drop but not too much lower.

Also all the prices are subject to change with out notice.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thanks Stephen you are right.

I already corrected it.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

"Why, what's so comforting about a can of exposed film (sealed with tape) compared to an immediately verifiable and backed up digital image?"

Um, the fact that you can always go back to the negative if there is a problem or corrpution of digital media.

Maybe they have proven a way to back up media and verify that it isn't corrupted before you get rid of the media on your Red Ram or CF drive. That's what makes the bonders nervous.

 

[Brook Willard]

Um, the fact that you can always go back to the negative if there is a problem or corrpution of digital media.

A sealed can of exposed film is far from a negative that you can go back to in case of a problem. It's a time bomb just waiting for some PA to drop it.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Thanks Stephen you are right.

I already corrected it.

Hi,

4 would make many people more comfortable IMHO.

Stephen

 

[I Bloom]

"Why, what's so comforting about a can of exposed film (sealed with tape) compared to an immediately verifiable and backed up digital image?"

Um, the fact that you can always go back to the negative if there is a problem or corrpution of digital media.

Maybe they have proven a way to back up media and verify that it isn't corrupted before you get rid of the media on your Red Ram or CF drive. That's what makes the bonders nervous.

I think file corruption and failed drives should be compared to tape dropout, deck failure, hair in the gate, ripped sprockets. At least on random access media we can check the viability of our data within minutes of shooting it.

If you have a careful workflow with human and machine checks in place you are secure. Hands in a changing tent == hands on a laptop keyboard.

So I think it's really a matter of the bonding companies learning about this technology and making deals to match. The ones who do it first will get a leg up.

IBloom

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Hi,

4 would make many people more comfortable IMHO.

Stephen

Hi,

Later I will add it for sure. Not enough budget for all at the moment because I am assembling on set station based on MacBookPro 17"+ HDLink+23"/30" monitoring, than post workflow based on macpro 8 core 9GB memory station, sound recording based on Fostex FR2 Compact Field Memory Hard Disk Recorder, post sound production with Yamaha Digital Mixing studio O1x mLan based, Logic, Soundtrack and Reason 3 as basic for sound+score postproduction etc. Also have a good set of Nikon F mount lenses from diverse brands (Zeiss, Leica, Schneider, Nikkor, Cooke, Sigma), FF from RR Micro, Matte box from Vocas, 4 ND filters from Schneider etc.
I want to rent all this as a package. BOOM!