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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What will *you* rent it for?

What will *you* rent it for?

  • Total voters
    303
In my opinion, the majority of you are dreaming.

Why do you think production companies who can afford to pay over $1000 a day would want to shoot on red? Sure, Red is a big buzzword nowadays, but it is not proven. There is no workflow that anyone is accustomed to. There is no way in my mind that there will be a surplus of demand for a red camera. At least not right away. After about 4-6 months there might be a surge since people will begin to be able to get comfortable with the camera.

People here talk as if this will be the day they receive their red one:

1: receive package in mail
2: open package and assemble accessories
3: shoot some beautiful images from your backyard
4: burn bluray disc, send to producers and wait for the cash to roll in

I believe it will be months and months of sitting on an investment waiting for ANY return. Mark my words.

I would pay $1000 a day for a red one and an operator. Anything more and it becomes an issue. Just because your camera will be one of the best out there (ideally) doesn't negate the fact that it costs less than $30,000.
 
adobeone said:
If I end up shooting down there I can throw some work your way.
Click to expand...
How about as the only person in this proposition that hasn’t threatened extortion, I hang on to my equipment.

But yeah, rates……well here’s the rate card of a respected supplier here who has ordered 4 Reds(#60’s & 700’s).
Page 16 - $A850 pd. http://www.lemac.com.au/rental/cat/BBDigitalSML.pdf
and whilst your wet dreams of 4K @ $2500 are ending I suggest reading their standard terms: http://www.lemac.com.au/rental/rental-terms.htm , particularly their liability & insurance sections.
Hell I might even throw in a bank guarantee for the technologically or legally challenged or buffoon producer (could help myself but, hey…).

It’s all about risk……not moving until it’s properly mitigated. You should know stuff like Red drive (raid 1) recovery procedures, flash failure rates. I don’t hire a writer, give him an 80GB disk and say we’ll back it up when it’s full. Your back regime must be proportionate to risk of situation. Personally I’d be ensuring media is backed up at a rate commiserate of the cost of failure at any particular instant, and just shy of completely pissing the production team off by overly disrupting their daily workflow.
Cheers,
Dave

ps:....I’ll accept the super soaker gauntlet.
 
Nathan Buxton said:
In my opinion, the majority of you are dreaming.

Why do you think production companies who can afford to pay over $1000 a day would want to shoot on red? Sure, Red is a big buzzword nowadays, but it is not proven. There is no workflow that anyone is accustomed to. There is no way in my mind that there will be a surplus of demand for a red camera. At least not right away. After about 4-6 months there might be a surge since people will begin to be able to get comfortable with the camera.

People here talk as if this will be the day they receive their red one:

1: receive package in mail
2: open package and assemble accessories
3: shoot some beautiful images from your backyard
4: burn bluray disc, send to producers and wait for the cash to roll in

I believe it will be months and months of sitting on an investment waiting for ANY return. Mark my words.

I would pay $1000 a day for a red one and an operator. Anything more and it becomes an issue. Just because your camera will be one of the best out there (ideally) doesn't negate the fact that it costs less than $30,000.
Click to expand...
I think you are looking at this all wrong. Those who are established DPs/Camera Ops have been telling their clients about the camera for a while and building up some interest. If they are really good at what they do, and there are many on this forum who are pretty darn good at what they do, then they will have an established client base who might have interest in shooting with the camera right out of the gate. Others have been marketing the camera and their service in other ways. Like anything else you have to have a plan when you invest money into something like this.

Having said that, sure, there will be some people who might find the camera sitting around with no takers. There is quite a wide variety of experience level in this community. Some people may take a little longer to get their feet wet with this kind of camera and they will need to see how they fit into the bigger picture. Others will be shooting on day one.

So, I think this also relates to the rental part of this. You charge what you can charge. There are a lot of variables.

1. Demand for the camera in your area
2. Your experience level. Are you a high in demand camera op or DP or DIT?
3. What kind of support are you offering?
4. Do you have a thriving client base that has a lot of trust in you and will follow your lead on shooting with this camera.
5. Can you provide clients with a robust post workflow.

These are all part of putting together a business plan. Of course going into this blind, with no idea how you'll make money with it would be a bad idea, unless you have money to burn and like new toys. You have to be smart. I think there will be lots of opportunities for people who know what they are doing and have done all of their homework on this new system. I see a lot of people who are saying they will go out as DITs but I wonder if everyone has experience doing this. It may not be as simple as some may think. You are going to have to know your stuff when it comes to setting up cameras and ensuring a flawless workflow on set. Learning on the job may really hurt your rep for getting future work. Just something to consider.

Steve
 
ibloom said:
I appreciate your consideration. Please contact me via email or telephone. This information can be found in the contact section of my website.

IBloom
Click to expand...
And while Ian is waiting for his #654, feel free to contact me as well :whistling:

Haha...
 
SELL VALUE and EXPERIENCE

SELL VALUE and EXPERIENCE

VALUE - My sentiments exactly. Having been in this business for forty years and alway riding on the bleeding edge of technology I have seen time and time again young guys selling there services cheaply - based on what they paid for the technology. And so, every year, with that strategy they have to charge less and less - when in fact they are getting more experienced and have more VALUE to their clients. And then they compete with each other cutting prices even lower. On another forum I heard guys talking about doing three camera shoots of weddings, complete editing package and 20 finished
DVD's for $500 - and asking if they were charging too much. Insanity!

Selling VALUE and EXPERIENCE is the only way to stay ahead in this game.

IMHO, don't got head to head with rental companies because they are set up a certain way to be competitive. If you sell or rent you RED services - sell your clients on a total workflow management and oversight - something they can't get from rental companies.

Also you have to take into account what you are replacing - thousands of dollars of film and processing - money that the producers can put back into their production. The cost for your gear and services will be minimal compared to that.

Higher quality, minimal cost, more options, faster turnaround, on-site editing, raw format for unlimited revisions, - the list of VALUE-ADDED feature to sell with and justify your rates is enormous.

Once YOU really understand the value - have the courage to stand up and make some good deals. We will be in the driver's seat for quite a while.

As IBloom said, we are the beneficiaries of a great investment - and we - not our clients - should reap the benefit.

Try not to think of your service as a commodity - like something you buy at Costco. You are like fine wine - getting better and more expensive with age.

How many times have you been told "Your camera takes great pictures."
And what did you want to say in response?

It would be great if we could organize a unified Global RED Rental Strategy and backup contingency network.

We have such a new and unique opportunity to help Jim change the industry with this revolution it would be great if we were all on the same page to support one another. Maybe a RED Local... where one could get support, certification, insurance, group rates, etc.

IBloom - your extending your aloha to Curran to help him and keep him from "going to the dark side" of selling himeself to cheaply is a testiment to who you are.

We are - in Hawaiian terms - an "ohana" or family. and in an ohana you take care of your own. Even though on some level we are all competitors - we are still ohana - joined by the spirit of RED. That's why we all spend so much time here.

What is our part in the RED Revolution? Food for thought.

aloha,

Keiith
 
Dave thanks for the link to the rate card, by my calculation if you rented the complete package, which is what you would need to do in order to actually shoot a movie. 2090.00 thats 1722.00 us. I know your worth at least 600.00 us a day

Wow that's pretty close 2500 a day. Damn that new math

I know your toilets flush in the opposite direction down there. Could the laws of addition and subtraction be different too.

PS Oh the water show down is on, mate
PM me your contact info brother.
 
I would not rent out my red package by the day, but i'm thinking of putting together a longer term lease package of several months. It won't be cheap, but it wound allow someone to get their hands on the camera early on.
 
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  • #93
Rocketeer said:
Brook, Only in the US could you command that type of rate. Would that rate include a Macbook raid rig? You've just given more reason for Sound Recordists to become more bitter and twisted than they already are :wink:
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Nah, that wouldn't include any equipment. A MacBook would go $150-200/d with plenty of accessories, the drives would be supplied by the client, etc.

On bigger shows [the shows that I'm personally aiming at... think large indie or studio feature grade productions], I have some thoughts about the kind of equipment setup that would really make RED work flawlessly on a set [while keeping the studio happy and dramatically speeding up turnaround time]. It's based on all of my on-set and RED knowledge... and it goes miles beyond a laptop on a cart. I'll save that one for me, though. :innocent:
 
okay sop, you know what....you producers, gotta give it to you when it comes to financials...being so creative and shit.
Okay whistles & bangs for 4k @ $2500+........alright...should of seen that coming, now you're saying everything for 2K @ $2,000 and HD 1080p is half rate at $1200 a day.
...But wait, my god, those thieves/fools at Lemac.
Their rate card ($A):
Red-4K....$850
SI-2K......$2000
F900R-HD.....$2000

We've gotta all tell them their rates are wrong.
Couple of reasons......
- F900R (cost $200K) is known/proven HD camera.
- Red is cheap for Lemac but they'll also pickup on accessories.
If Red works, it'll bring the others down not the other way round!
Cheers,
 
Keith Nealy said:
Selling VALUE and EXPERIENCE is the only way to stay ahead in this game.
Click to expand...

Wow, that was a really great post--got me thinking how I am really going to market my company in the future.

There are a couple of ways I am going to market the RED to my clients.

1. Walk away with full 35MM quality footage ready to edit the next day. 2. Full HD monitoring on set with quick clip playback--no crappy vid asst picture. Low media cost--hopefully walk off with 2 $100 Hard Drive's of their media.

But even with all of that...it's gonna come down to...do I have experience shooting big productions? It's hard to get clients to see past the smaller production value and look at the storytelling and creativity. Here, look at what I did with $6,000 and no crew...guess what I can do with $25,000 and a crew...but because of indy filmmaking, I believe more and more clients are starting to understand that the creativity is VERY important. I can go out and hire the best key grip/gaffer to light the most beautiful thing, but if I have boring angles and crap, it's boring. When you start talking with a client about a project, does your mind start running through how things might look and what fresh angle you can bring to the table? I wish I could shut my mind off about those things at night when I'm trying to fall asleep...I would probably sleep better!

Matthew
 
This has been a very good thread.

Any serious production is going to be much more concerned with reliability than anything else. Your ability to ensure a reliable workflow is going to get you more money than the difference between nikons and zeiss.

Does anyone know the probability of spontaneous drive/compact flash failure?

I'd love to be able to reassure producers who are concerned about the REDDrives (clearly the weakest link in the system), and tell them about the more expensive option available (flash).

I figure talking about failure rates is the best way to convince people to go with the more expensive flash option.
 
PerfectOptics said:
Does anyone know the probability of spontaneous drive/compact flash failure?
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Spontaneous failure of Compact Flash is extremely low (depending on manufacturer). Generally in the .005% range of failure on any given day. Reputable manufacturers will provide the failure rate for their cards. The chance of human error is actually much higher... oops, did I delete that?!
 
Sop. Does that stand for Superior Operational Prowess, I think it does.

I do know my financials, and I know how much money can be made by your clients, and I know how much savings you give the client.

I look at all of you as my bitches, and I would be remiss in my Pimp-ness. If I didn't help you maximize your earning power. You guys aren't street corner harpies, no...no...no, your first class penthouse whores. That comes from my heart man.

Seriously the number for 4k feature film production with the red, with all the stuff you need. As well as data management and workflow that is bullet proof. Is between 3000 to 4500 a day You will get it, and when its over they will be thanking you.

On the issue of law suits stemming from crashed or corrupted drives. It doesn't matter what disclaimer you use or waiver that it signed. You venerability is tied to your clients desire for litigation. I know allot guys that just get off on it, and they have the war chest to hurt you. Unfortunately most of the ones I know are in the film business. Due diligence is the only thing in the eyes of the judge that is going to let you prevail. Due diligence is expensive if not in dollars, it is definitely when it comes to time, and time is money... So price accordingly.
 
$1200.00 per day minimum for the camera body. Not knowing what the preferred storage medium will be, who knows for the periphirals. We are a professional film rental house, so I don't know yet what Red accessories we will need to integrate our currant lens options. We will cater only to Major motion pictures, Television production, and Commercial production.
 
PerfectOptics said:
Does anyone know the probability of spontaneous drive/compact flash failure?
Click to expand...

Well there is that Google study from a while back that I posted but I think knowing the "rate" of failure is fairly useless knowledge. It's more important to know what to do in the event of failure.

Most hard drive failures will not destroy the actual magnetic data on the platters, this is as stable as video tape. What is prone to failure is really the mechanical parts, the read/write head and the motor to spin the platters. When these fail the data is just stuck on the platter.

The good news is that for $500 bucks you can send a drive to a shop and have them open it up and recover all the data off the drive. (A RED drive is RAID 0, so a little more complicated but still possible.) My understanding is that most failures are recoverable in this manner.

So if you are shooting to RED Drives and transfering every half day to a RAID 1 then you should be in very good shape.

Only in very dyer situations when the data is really unrecoverable will your risk be greater than the cost of the recovery service.

So I wouldn't worry too much about sad producers who have nothing better to do but sue you because they lost a half days work. If you are careful with your workflow I believe you will really be very secure. Perhaps more secure then film or tape.

IBloom
 
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