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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What we need to convince more DPs on Dragon

Well ... RED has sold a LOT of cameras. More EPICs than ALEXAs by a mile. That's a fact.

So ... while I think it's interesting to hear criticisms about their "image" - from a rental house point of view - all the ACs and Operators and DPs I talk with - they don't push RED away because of a Tattoo parlor stage at a trade show - honestly - they don't give a flying fuck (pardon my French) about that stuff AT ALL.

What they REALLY care about, and react to- is the GEAR and THE IMAGE the camera makes. When I say the GEAR - I mean, how can they pyhsically work with it - and get their job done with confience and efficiency. So ... LITTLE DETAILS ... like only one HDSDI ... and where that HDSDI is placed - is a MAJOR deal to them. If it makes their jobs harder - they will push it away or trash talk it.

DPs care about the image the camera makes, and they want to feel confident. If they hear lots of guys from various camera departments bitching - it raises a red flag (no pun intended).

Marketing & Education are crticial to changing what Anti-Red sentiment is out there. But, it's less about "no tattoos or heavy metal" - and more about presenting what professionals are using RED and why.

You can put Jarred into a pair of Gucci shoes and it ain't gonna make anyone like RED more.

Make some new Modules that solve the day to day issues and gripes as fast as possible. Be more like APPLE - pull the rabbit out of the bag when it is less than 60 days from shipping in quantity.

Get some major show runner / post supervisors to do a testimonial ad in The Hollywood Reporter about "how efficient and easy working with RED R3D files can be", etc. etc. etc. - given the new push and buzz over 4K coming to TV - it's the perfect time to target some ads about "easy 4K workflow". They don't need to be technical - just "we are doing it now - it works - it's not difficult - we love the results".
 
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Agree Mark.

It is practical things (like we have discussed) and "being in" situations which make the difference.
And making a description like REDs are not used is pretty silly.

Like it is silly to not aknowledge what Arri did with the Alexa.

And to me, this thing becomes all the more relevant WITH Dragon, simply because the image Rocks the boat, and it is tempting to try to get into as many situations as possible.

But RED does pretty well in the ultra high-end of things. :)

And as mentioned here: In the owner/operator segment.

So it is your "daily" commercials and smaller features which is maybe the biggest challenge?

Dragon has the potential to rock that boat a bit, though.
 
Right Gunleik and mark,

so on the image quality things the response is dragon (which solves a lot) and will satisfy the DP chain. and on the ergonomics thing, well, er... That's the other thread I started because the body and the I/O is a part that the ac's, steadicam ops, sound department ect, want and need to to make more efficient.

ii think the opening up of RCX to "regular" GPU processing could be a great thing to market more! like working with R3d is easier than it's ever been. Then go on to explain why R3d is the container you want to capture your image in.

Battistella
 
Hey Rob, I wish you'd say what you really think. (!)

My piece was shot for a purpose, and taking it out of context is silly. The shots in it are carefully planned and designed to push specific aspects of the picture. If you'd been at the workshops or demos based on this material you'd understand better. The final deliverable is not the point in its entirety. The lighting, exposure, technical choices and image chain, and the things Dragon pulls off in that context, are what this is all about.

I'd also appreciate it if you did not continue to imply that there's anything wrong with my attitude towards women. You do not know me. Publicly berating my personal moral compass from the cheap seats is not on.
 
Robert Ruffo New said:
I don't mean low-class by birth (I could care less what anyone's parents did or how much money they had), nor by income, I mean by personal behavioral choice- how much you read or develop your sensitivity is more than not your own choice. I mean crass, crude, loud. And that is exactly what the Red booth design was like.

https://vimeo.com/84244405 is an example of a video done by Red Europe. Not exactly elegant, trendy, sophisticated (choose whatever words you prefer). The girl is acting a in a way that makes her look cheap, the late-80s style rock music reminds me exactly of a Fox News promo or a Nascar race.

I have nothing against sexy, (Mark Peterson's Dragon Girl clips were sexy too, but also really quite beautiful, as was "It's just paint" )but this Vimeo clip is a kind of sexy that is…. Low class. It makes me think of fat old men who don't read nor keep up with trends and go to strip clubs a lot.

I can't imagine Arri doing a promo like this, but I can imagine an off-brand of LED manufacturer, or perhaps a brand of auto parts. Its' repugnant to women (a huge percentage of producers are women), repugnant to me. It makes me think "I'll go easy on associating myself for Red too much, because I don;t want people associating me with that kind of cheesy mentality."
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Is the video cheesy? That's a matter of taste. To be honest, I think most of the camera/film stock promo videos I've ever seen are cheesy, just in a different way. Sony, Canon, Arri and Kodak have some real stinkers…beautifully shot stinkers.

Now, is the video repugnant? Again, as far as concept/execution influences an individual's taste and subsequent artistic gag reflex, perhaps to some. From a content standpoint, I'd say that's way too strong a word.

I, and I assume most others, see a video like this for what it is (camera demo footage) and don't think of it as scintillating and disrespectful to women when I can go to a Broadway show and see the exact same outfits and dancing and All That Jazz.

If you want to show skin tones you gotta show skin. Just ask Arri about that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtRh5hLXNBs Cheesy? A bit.
 
John Marchant said:
Hey Rob, I wish you'd say what you really think. (!)

My piece was shot for a purpose, and taking it out of context is silly. The shots in it are carefully planned and designed to push specific aspects of the picture. If you'd been at the workshops or demos based on this material you'd understand better. The final deliverable is not the point in its entirety. The lighting, exposure, technical choices and image chain, and the things Dragon pulls off in that context, are what this is all about.

I'd also appreciate it if you did not continue to imply that there's anything wrong with my attitude towards women. You do not know me. Publicly berating my personal moral compass from the cheap seats is not on.
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Showing class here.

Classy.
 
Incidentally, I presented the material Rob dislikes so much on behalf of Red Europe to a number of ISC members in Dublin at Digital Biscuit. As well as the workshop sessions, I gave a technical breakdown and description shot by shot alongside 4K projection. This was very warmly received, discussed at length, and was in strong contrast to Arri's more direct sales presentation for Amira which preceded it.

This thread is titled 'what we need to convince more DPs on Dragon'. Well IMHO Red need to show smart educated DPs the things they need to see. Not a perfect pretty reel, but the guts of what can be achieved and how. And honestly to me it feels like that's happening.

Furthermore, from what I can see Red are doing a sterling job running and growing their business. If your own business doesn't dovetail with it in a way thats profitable and enjoyable, it may not necessarily be for them to change. Just a thought.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
You can put Jarred into a pair of Gucci shoes and it ain't gonna make anyone like RED more.
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Well no... because he is likely to ask them "Why the fuck are you looking at my shoes when I have this sweet little camera in my hand?" :biggrin:

On a more serious note and FWIW I agree with your assessment. Those factors define where the rubber meets the road and that is what counts.
 
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The personal attacks and non constructive tones gets a little, er...boring.

its one thing to try to be provocative and outspoken, while being inclusive and constructive. It's another to be dismissive and accusatory.

John's a solid member of this community calling out his demo video as sexist is a bit offside, but everyone sees things a bit differently.

Again, if his dragon footage does not suit your female clients taste, rent a dragon from mark at offhollywood and prepare something you perceive as respectful to your clients and post it for the world to see. Maybe we can all the use it as a pointer to what tasteful dragon footage looks like. At the very least it will be another example out there. :)

battistella
 
Never mind renting. If anyone wants to shoot for a day with Dragon to put something out there for the community they can do so with mine. Just this once, no charge. First come first served.
 
John Marchant said:
Never mind renting. If anyone wants to shoot for a day with Dragon to put something out there for the community they can do so with mine. Just this once, no charge. First come first served.
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First calss. All class. In in California right now or I would take you up on it and fly over to the UK. :)
 
Brian Boyer said:
I, and I assume most others, see a video like this for what it is (camera demo footage) and don't think of it as scintillating and disrespectful to women when I can go to a Broadway show and see the exact same outfits and dancing and All That Jazz.

If you want to show skin tones you gotta show skin. Just ask Arri about that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtRh5hLXNBs Cheesy? A bit.
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Yes but guys also have skin. So do children. Babies. Older people, women who aren't models... etc etc etc.

I actually wasn't coming at it from the whole point of view of identity politics. You make a great point that there is lots of this sort of stuff out there anyway and having something that looks quite fashion or very broadway might show an element of production because people do work on this stuff. HOWEVER, people also can shoot footage of watches, cars, buildings cake, chocolate, coffee, even movies. There was even some nice stills of a car early on showing the dynamic range. If all the footage coming out of the dragon is of women in their underwear or whatever, then people might be led to believe that the camera would be great for shooting soft porn and only think of it in that context.

In relation to people having a bad attitude toward women here... it's definitely interesting to see people saying such things or being concerned about such things! Having posted on image making forums for probably at least 10 years (yikes!) I've sat by as guys have had long public discussions with each other about how women shouldn't be involved in cinematography and wouldn't be capable etc etc. I can't even remember all the different arguments. (I probably wasn't paying a lot of attention to be fair!) So it's very surprising to see people online on a camera related forum being concerned that fellow cinematgoraphers might in some way have a bad attitude towards women! Looks like things have changed a lot in the world somewhere along the line. I note Vitttorio Storaro ended his keynote speech at the BSC Expo by saying that he thought the future would see many more female cinematographers! Maybe he is onto something.

Freya
 
Also I get the impression that a lot of people out there are quite excited by the Red Dragon. Outside of RedUser tho, I don't tend to hear people talk about how awful the skin tones are on Red Cameras although I do hear people talk about how great the skin tones are on the Arri Alexa but that isn't quite the same thing really.

Never, ever, heard anyone say anything bad about the skintones on the dragon. Quite apart from anything else because dragons are of course very rare. Some people might even suggest they are mythical beasts.

Freya
 
John Marchant said:
Never mind renting. If anyone wants to shoot for a day with Dragon to put something out there for the community they can do so with mine. Just this once, no charge. First come first served.
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great stuff john!

i will join that offer from Norway
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
Well ... RED has sold a LOT of cameras. More EPICs than ALEXAs by a mile. That's a fact.

So ... while I think it's interesting to hear criticisms about their "image" - from a rental house point of view - all the ACs and Operators and DPs I talk with - they don't push RED away because of a Tattoo parlor stage at a trade show - honestly - they don't give a flying fuck (pardon my French) about that stuff AT ALL.

What they REALLY care about, and react to- is the GEAR and THE IMAGE the camera makes. When I say the GEAR - I mean, how can they pyhsically work with it - and get their job done with confience and efficiency. So ... LITTLE DETAILS ... like only one HDSDI ... and where that HDSDI is placed - is a MAJOR deal to them. If it makes their jobs harder - they will push it away or trash talk it.

DPs care about the image the camera makes, and they want to feel confident. If they hear lots of guys from various camera departments bitching - it raises a red flag (no pun intended).

Marketing & Education are crticial to changing what Anti-Red sentiment is out there. But, it's less about "no tattoos or heavy metal" - and more about presenting what professionals are using RED and why.

You can put Jarred into a pair of Gucci shoes and it ain't gonna make anyone like RED more.

Make some new Modules that solve the day to day issues and gripes as fast as possible. Be more like APPLE - pull the rabbit out of the bag when it is less than 60 days from shipping in quantity.

Get some major show runner / post supervisors to do a testimonial ad in The Hollywood Reporter about "how efficient and easy working with RED R3D files can be", etc. etc. etc. - given the new push and buzz over 4K coming to TV - it's the perfect time to target some ads about "easy 4K workflow". They don't need to be technical - just "we are doing it now - it works - it's not difficult - we love the results".
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While I 100% hear you, and agree with what you say, there is a segment of the market where these things do have an effect, and I would add that there is an old joke in the advertising world about how everyone claims they are not affected by advertising, while sale fluctuations prove otherwise. This mostly because adverting has an unconscious effect more than a conscious one, and so by definition many of us are not aware of it.

If the content of a booth really didn't matter, no one would pay for booths at places like NAB, or they would all be the curtain-backdrop-plus-bowl-of-candy variety.

In many markets (your mileage may vary) the push and buzz over 4K has not translated into any actual client demands for 4K finish, it's just talk (so far). Because a 4K finish is more expensive, I have very effectively talked the one client who asked for one by showing him 4K upscaled from 2K next to true 4K on a 4K monitor - using a verity of shot types. He could not accurately guess which was which, until he was 3 feet away from a 50 inch screen, and even then only on very sharp shots with huge amounts of detail shot without diffusion filtering at f8.

By more expensive I mean that if the shot has any 3D rendering (this one had quite a bit) you need to tune down the quality of polygon counts, volumetric precision, etc just to get to 4K within the same allocated compute budget, which is not really insignificant on something very complex. Even things like Flame and After Effects can run a LOT slower. And all those compromises to get a visual difference one can barely see, maybe not at all? Does not make any sense to me.

So….

As to numbers of cameras sold I don't really know the total number, I would however imagine that many people bought Epics and are struggling to get theme out the door, whereas Alexas rent and/or are requested for projects more often.

By the way, I apologize for misinterpreting the context of what you were saying on another forum.
 
John Marchant said:
Hey Rob, I wish you'd say what you really think. (!)

My piece was shot for a purpose, and taking it out of context is silly. The shots in it are carefully planned and designed to push specific aspects of the picture. If you'd been at the workshops or demos based on this material you'd understand better. The final deliverable is not the point in its entirety. The lighting, exposure, technical choices and image chain, and the things Dragon pulls off in that context, are what this is all about.

I'd also appreciate it if you did not continue to imply that there's anything wrong with my attitude towards women. You do not know me. Publicly berating my personal moral compass from the cheap seats is not on.
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John I've seen lost of great work from you, and I'm sure that you are a great person who indeed respects women. But maybe next time you should think about what your directing choices communicate to an audience, because whether you are focussing on such choices or not, the information still gets sent out. I stand behind the position that the girl in this video is acting like a stripper. Whether or not that was her choice or yours, it's still what she's doing, and it comes off as pretty tacky as does your music choice- and in this context it says (whether this was a desired conscious choice on your part or not) that you feel this kind of behavior is a desirable ideal. There are many ways to be sexy, and a large number of those other ways have the women come off an intelligent and empowered, all the while making men drool, and it has nothing to do with how much clothing they are wearing or not. The woman in your video in my opinion could best be described as coming off like a love doll with a pulse.

The lighting and framing are superb - maybe next time hire a separate director if you don't have time to focus on acting choices yourself. If you don't see the distinctions I am making here, or other members of this forum fail to understand them, or even why the music re-enforces this perception, with all due respect that doesn't mean that the distinctions don't exist or are not perceivable by others.
 
Well, everyone interprets things in their own way, has their own tastes, biases and opinions and there is no way to appeal to all of them. You apparently believe that all people with tattoos are mysogenistic simpletons. You are entitled to that. I agree with Mark that most of us are open minded enough to see beyond the individual's image and the marketing image and get down to the images that matter most. While these things are not inconsequential they are but a tiny part of a much bigger picture. We shouldn't give them more weight than they deserve. If you can agree with that, perhaps we move on now?

I apologize for my part in taking your discussion away from the more important aspects of the topic. I tried to keep it in perspective.

Robert Ruffo New said:
The lighting and framing are superb - maybe next time hire a separate director if you don't have time to focus on acting choices yourself. If you don't see the distinctions I am making here, or other members of this forum fail to understand them, or even why the music re-enforces this perception, with all due respect that doesn't mean that the distinctions don't exist or are not perceivable by others.
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Each to their own. I disagree with Rob clearly, or I would have chosen differently.

I look forward to sharing the pre/post comparison stuff here soon, as its that which is most illuminating and which may go further to explain some things in this piece which are really not part of my usual aesthetic (!) suffice to say for the moment that we turned all the dials to 11 in post.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
great stuff john!

i will join that offer from Norway
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Your cam is in my safe mwahahaha! Nice of you to join in on this- I want people to know this is genuine, not about points scoring. More images in the wild benefit all of us in the long run.
 
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