What we need to convince more DPs on Dragon

[Paul Schneider]

Paul not sure if you heard, but Proxy module is dead.

I had not heard. Unfortunate.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

https://nikoneurope-en.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/56368

 

[Paul Schneider]

You can do that now with any number of external recorders that weigh a few ounces and that you can adhere to the cam with Velcro. You don't need any fancy modules.

Productions want simple, integrated, consistent solutions. Non-standard, third party add on's make things more confusing and expensive.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Productions want simple, integrated, consistent solutions. Non-standard, third party add on's make things more confusing and expensive.

Fair enough, but some, like the PIX, have lamost become a standard, although I do see your point. As for expensive, you're still way under an Alexa, recorders don't cost much.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

The Odyssey 7 could certainly be a game changer. External recorders like this make it easier to understand why RED recently abandoned their proxy module. From the Blade to Small HD's future offerings, it appears clear that monitoring and proxy recording are slowly fusing into one box. Across the board, straight to edit workflows appear to be getting easier...for all cameras. Which is a plus, because I agree with Paul, the RED workflow never been it's selling point (a commitment to RAW was).

Also, computers appear to be catching up - the new Mac trashcan handles Dragon 6K files surprisingly well.

Old Mac Pros (12-core, with a good graphics card) handle 6K without issue as well since they benchmark more or less the same as the "new" trashcans, they're just less expensive. The reality is, it has been many years since Red post was a real problem, but it persists as an imaginary perceptual one, and… Perception is reality.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Old Mac Pros (12-core, with a good graphics card) handle 6K without issue as well since they benchmark more or less the same as the "new" trashcans, they're just less expensive. The reality is, it has been many years since Red post was a real problem, but it persists as an imaginary perceptual one, and… Perception is reality.

I decided to save $$$ and invest in a used 12-Core myself, for many of the reasons you listed.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

i think that "you" (meaning whoever is presenting themselves to their clients) should be reputable and trustworthy enough to your own clients to sell them the system you use and why you use it (with samples etc.) But the kind of "we" tests you are talking about, you post on reduser, then proceed to shit on Redusers who do tests and then proceed to say that others have a narrow world view.

Maybe you are saying "we" like "you" including "yourself" as part of RED? I'm not sure.

maybe RED, or a list of "reputable red users" like yourself, should be providing a slew of tests that somehow prove that when you pick up their camera your clients are pretty much guaranteed an amazing image?

It's strange how all those Redusers who contribute here, I dunno, guys like Toia and Gunleik and maybe the ASC cinematographer Peter Lyons Collister, Christopher Probst, Andersen, Zazaztel, Mark Pederson at off Hollywood and folks who have done extensive testing like Phil Holland, have not satisfied your need for "proof" that the images are not up to your business standards.

So that is why I suggested that if all of this is not yet enough to satisfy your own personal and business needs and it has the urgency of your post and thread title, then perhaps you should get on the phone with Mark Pederson in. NYC, arrange a rental day with all three cameras and bring your own testing methods to the table. If you wanted to share them with the community here that might be good for everyone else as well.

But wait, you've already indirectly insulted all those people who freely have taken their time to share with this community because the combination of all that they have provided does not hold up to your standards or provide enough direct comparisons for your liking.

Anyone who has seen a lot of r3d can see all they need to see in Mark Toia footage in terms of how many improvements the new sensor has. Then everything that came after that just builds on that, one brick at a time, generous reduser after generous reduser.

So before you lightly accuse people of a narrow world view take a look at your own, or as my grandmother used to say,

"When you point a finger, always remember the three other fingers on your hand are pointing back at yourself"


Battistella

Hey now, I'm not shitting on anybody. I have tremendous respect for many users here, even for you, and have said so many times (OK, first time specifically about you, but…). I'm not really a tech guy in terms of my background , I come from a directing and producing background first, starting out in the music business which is not exactly genteel, so maybe my language is more colorful than some DPs, but there's no malice behind it.

I have never said anything to shit on Gunleik or any of the names you list, and I have no desire to start.

As far as my clients, they care a lot more about my reel and personal relationship than about my camera tech preferences, and many don't even know that we own the Reds we show up with on set (they're just line items on the budget like anything else - they could care less who provided the gear as long as it works) , which ironically means that they feel happy to make that tech choice for me, and so far Alexa reassures them way more than anything else. I am not a fanboy, and Alexa is fine with me, I just wish our Reds made more money more often, as I'm sure are other owners on this forum. I like making money, as much money as I can shove into my pockets, and I have no shame about that. This is a business. It pays my rent.

"We" meant all of us who own/operate Reds and try to make a buck off of them, and have access to cams to make tests.

Seriously dude, relax.

 

[David Battistella]

Yep,

I agree with a lot of what you said in this last post. Actually deleted the post before you responded because I don't want to come off a harsh. We all want the same things you mention. The best tool to make the most cash.

Its cool.

 

[George Butterfield]

I would argue that in addition to any tests, the workflow needs to be more flexible.

In the commercial world, producers make the call as to what cameras to use equally (or more) than the DP's.
Alexa is easy. It shoots Prores that looks amazing...and unless you need the increased resolution for vfx or something there is really very little reason not to use it.

This is the reason, skin tones are set in POST. You say you don't do POST. Everything shot on ALEX gets POST. The skin tones argument (if it even has any validity) is a red herring. People use ALEX because they don't need the superior image (and extra effort) that RED provides. If you're making a music video, do you really care, I mean really care. Do the people watching music videos care, I mean really care. That's why they use ALEXA. A music video is all about fast cuts to conceal the fact that the "Artist" has no talent.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I like espresso, and am fortunate enough to own a decent machine. With it I make a mean cup but I also like the stuff my friend's Italian style maker produces, though I couldn't afford to buy one. It is a big brass pressurized boiler. Sometimes I imagine that I am driving an old steam train. It is fun, but I still love my little black box.

My buddy is a good barista, but sometimes his coffee tastes a little bitter to me even with that fancy machine. He likes it though, bitter or not. It turns out that there is a broad range of tastes out there and a good cup is dependent on execution. It is art and science. There are no guarantees with art.

 

[Scott Crawley]

This is the reason, skin tones are set in POST. You say you don't do POST. Everything shot on ALEX gets POST. The skin tones argument (if it even has any validity) is a red herring. People use ALEX because they don't need the superior image (and extra effort) that RED provides. If you're making a music video, do you really care, I mean really care. Do the people watching music videos care, I mean really care. That's why they use ALEXA. A music video is all about fast cuts to conceal the fact that the "Artist" has no talent.

Wow, that is a mixed bag of fact, opinion and dangerous, erroneous conjecture you have there George.

I advise against underestimating your audience be they the end user, the Director, the talent, a production company or all four. It will bite you on the arse.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

This is the reason, skin tones are set in POST. You say you don't do POST. Everything shot on ALEX gets POST. The skin tones argument (if it even has any validity) is a red herring. People use ALEX because they don't need the superior image (and extra effort) that RED provides. If you're making a music video, do you really care, I mean really care. Do the people watching music videos care, I mean really care. That's why they use ALEXA. A music video is all about fast cuts to conceal the fact that the "Artist" has no talent.

Hey George, many people here take music video seriously, me included. We work very hard to make every frame as good as it can be, and some music videos have been watched more than 40 times by the same viewer, have their own fansites that discuss every shot at length, etc. The fact that you think none of them have any art or care behind them shows your ignorance and lack of appreciation of the artform, nothing else. Just guessing, you make "serious" art films (read boring, with no plot structure, lots of mumbled dialogue, and no makeup budget, that appeal only to older arts professors). I suppose I'm expected to feel this makes you "superior" to me and the many Redusers who work on music videos with great passion. Well guess what….

 

[luigivaltulini]

This is the reason, skin tones are set in POST. You say you don't do POST. Everything shot on ALEX gets POST. The skin tones argument (if it even has any validity) is a red herring. People use ALEX because they don't need the superior image (and extra effort) that RED provides. If you're making a music video, do you really care, I mean really care. Do the people watching music videos care, I mean really care. That's why they use ALEXA. A music video is all about fast cuts to conceal the fact that the "Artist" has no talent.

that ever happened in music videos that they choose to Alexa, rather than RED.
Perhaps only in the case of Fanboy.
Indeed usually using RED, more frame rate, the more small, light, on gimbal on octocopter, etc. etc. The few times I've used Alexa on Set musical complained a lot because in addition to the shoulder you could not put it anywhere .. . too big and heavy to stay in the hand or over the shoulder for long periods.

However, Robert is right, now RED has to do publicity, many people have been scalded with the RED One and unfortunately this still now to repercussions.
Lot every day with this broken record ... Alexa Alexa and Alexa ....
I have broken my balls ... I would also like things to change, Dragon is a real nice sensor and produces stunning images impossible to deny it, now is the time.
Perhaps a good test done by RED would be nice to share.

 

[PC Greene]

Ship it. And Dragon Color 4.

The rest will sort itself out...

PCG

 

[David Litchfield]

Image attributes aside, I think a lot of DPs feel that Red is not reliable or buggy and always in a state of beta.

You have a sensor upgrade that's delayed over and over and then when it does go out it has an annoying flare. How does that get past quality control?

When someone posts a problem they are having the first response is always 'what firmware are you running?' It shouldn't matter, because a professional product should just work. No bugs, no glitches, no delays, no excuses.

 

[Eric Haase]

"You never get a second chance to make a first impression." Red One M sensor. It's going to take awhile- a long while of consistent performance, reliability, and excellent work by top DPs to change perceptions. It's been underway for awhile with the Epic but it will take Dragon a couple more years.

 

[Mike P.]

I think that people who often say "it's raw, you can change (aka 'fix') the skin tones to make them look like Alexa/film/whatever you want" are using bad logic and missing the inherent problem. No matter how you try to fancy it up, it's comes across as saying "fix it in post" and no client/producer likes to hear that. Even if it's objectively simple/cheap for you to do it, the production/producer will invariably pay an ass-load for it to be handled properly. Compare that to Alexa looking closer to finished out of the camera (only needing to leverage it's raw to get an aggressively different look, not using it to make it look like the norm), and it's an incredibly strong argument to use that system...

…plus Deakin's chooses to use it.

I'm thinking the mere fact that were talking about having to convince DPs on what system to use is the problem. If the camera doesn't look perfect out of the box, it doesn't matter that it has 6k or 16+ DR. In other words, lets wait and see how DragonGamma and DragonColour look with the updated OLPF before we decide if convincing is necessary (because realistically, on paper, there should be no need to have to convince people about Dragon's merits.)

 

[Nick Morrison]

I like espresso, and am fortunate enough to own a decent machine. With it I make a mean cup but I also like the stuff my friend's Italian style maker produces, though I couldn't afford to buy one. It is a big brass pressurized boiler. Sometimes I imagine that I am driving an old steam train. It is fun, but I still love my little black box.

My buddy is a good barista, but sometimes his coffee tastes a little bitter to me even with that fancy machine. He likes it though, bitter or not. It turns out that there is a broad range of tastes out there and a good cup is dependent on execution. It is art and science. There are no guarantees with art.

Best post ever?

 

[Mike Garrick]

Producers are governed by budgets & deliverables and the easiest way to get there with Post . This is why D.P's sometimes don't have a lot of choice in camera selection.

So maybe the title of this thread should "What do we need to get more Producers on Dragon"

Plus with a lot of work coming out of TV land. The need for Dragon becomes why I do I need 6K when my deliverable is HD. Other manufacturers are taking note where this is going hence cameras like Arri "Amira" & F55.

IMO. the benefits of over delivery needs to be sold to a sceptical audience who are not interested in making content for prosperity but for making content that returns a profit....... today .

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

There are a couple of issues here. First the comfort factor of many DPs with Arri and Alexa. This will sort itself out. Also the original perception of Red as a rogue, renegade company run by mad men. ( my friends)
And then there is a totally separate issue which is television and feature films are more and more looking at reducing below the line costs. I was lucky enough to have lunch with Connie Hall and he was talking about how producers were questioning his camera packages and lighting packages now when that never occurred in the past.

We are now dictated in many instances what camera, which lighting house and how much the budgets are for those tools. We are left to fight for things or to solve situations.

It is a changing world and there are those of us at the ASC who want to start slowly gaining some control back.

On a side note I have shot over 800 SSDs of Dragon footage and am in love with the look. I tell producers not to hate on that which they don't understand and if asked by my DP brothers and sisters I tell them why I love the look....

Peter