What we need to convince more DPs on Dragon

[Robert Ruffo New]

We need a side-by-side showing caucasian, Latino and freckled skin tones in Mx, Dragon and Alexa (although Alexa not absolutely necessary) - all three graded as well as possible with luma-curves and basic RAW settings, but no qualified secondaries, 3D LUTS or RGB curve work.

This will reassure people.

As it is now, perception is that unless you have time/money to do secondary qualified grading, skin tones in Alexa look much better out of the box, with no fuss, than using Epic MX.

I agree with this perception, it is simply true. Epic MX skin (not always, but often enough) tends to lack saturation more often than Alexa, and way more often than film, but maybe now with Dragon this problem is gone.

The fashion world likes super-white porcelain skin, (how most skin looks in Inez and Vs work for example) but most fiction shows, non-fashion ads, and so on do not lend themselves well to that look.

If a simple test can prove this, can prove the march forward in this actually important regard (more resolution than human eyes can see at typical viewing distances is not important to most DPs, nor to me) then you will sell Epic to a lot of highest-end shoots, a domain Red has pretty much completely now lost to Alexa except for 3D work, rightly or wrongly.

Virtually 100% of this year's Academy Award nominees were shot on Alexa. Very few TV major series are shot on Red anymore, in fact about as much prime time drama is still shot on F35 than Red. This makes it hard for me to sell using Red to agencies, or even for higher budget music videos, and very, very difficult for me to rent it to shoots which can actually afford to pay a reasonable rental for even lenses let alone the camera.

You can flame on me all you want, but the subject of conversation has to change from what is irrelevant to those making decisions about camera choice (resolution) to something which is very relevant to them (skin rendering) , and if I were Red I would pay to have these tests made ASAP, and hype them to no end.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

it will come...

 

[Daniel Leung]

I would like to see a test like that too

 

[Dominik Muench]

If I had a dragon now I'd give you guys skin tones in every possible variation ^^
but my trade in is months away :/

The Sony F35 choice seems interesting, I wonder what the reason would be to go for this system nowadays, purely skin rendition ?

 

[Matt Ryan]

Geoff Boyle will be doing just that in February along with quite a few other cameras. Gunleik will be there to oversee that Dragon is handled properly...

 

[Will Keir]

better delete this one, hehe

We need a side-by-side showing caucasian, Latino and freckled skin tones in Mx, Dragon and Alexa

 

[Phil Holland]

Geoff Boyle will be doing just that in February along with quite a few other cameras. Gunleik will be there to oversee that Dragon is handled properly...

While there might be no bigger advocate for testing "all the things" than myself, my biggest concern with this test happening will be the OLPF.

Dragon is ready today and shooting on films, but the OLPF IR reflection will be something that this test only illuminates. And Red will likely have the new OLPF and accompanying Color Science ready next month as well.

This will give the best camera to camera comparison if we are looking at all aspects of image quality and camera performance.

Once the new OLPF the data collected from this experiment becomes less useful essentially.

 

[Matt Ryan]

While there might be no bigger advocate for testing "all the things" than myself, my biggest concern with this test happening will be the OLPF.

Dragon is ready today and shooting on films, but the OLPF IR reflection will be something that this test only illuminates. And Red will likely have the new OLPF and accompanying Color Science ready next month as well.

This will give the best camera to camera comparison if we are looking at all aspects of image quality and camera performance.

Once the new OLPF the data collected from this experiment becomes less useful essentially.

Problem is RED shipped the camera like that so technically it's production ready. Sure, we'd love to see it with the new OLPF, but if the test happens before that....Not really the testers problem... You can't tell them wait till the new olpf comes in when the camera is shipping now and being used now.

I'm afraid if it's not with the new olpf, the damage will be done regardless of the fix...

 

[Paul Schneider]

I would argue that in addition to any tests, the workflow needs to be more flexible.

In the commercial world, producers make the call as to what cameras to use equally (or more) than the DP's.
Alexa is easy. It shoots Prores that looks amazing...and unless you need the increased resolution for vfx or something there is really very little reason not to use it.

Lets see that red prores module sooner than later. The ability to walk with dailies and simultaneously a raw master will, in my opinion, bolster usage more than any comparative tests.

Finally, lets get that OpenCL Red debayer going on all the main editorial, color, and compositing apps. R3D should be easy and fast.

 

[David Battistella]

I, kinda like Phil, would like to see a test when the OLPF is done and the dragon color science is released.

Until il then, I think you run the risk against running a beta camera against release builds. Clearly, dragon is great and getting better, but the first few side by sides will fill the internet with "opinion"

my my overal theory on tests is that the best ones are the ones you do yourself. There is no objectivity to any of these tests (as much as they try)and each of the tools can produce desirable, excellent images when 1. The DP knows the tool and the result they want and 2. The red images are processed properly.

I don't think "we" need to do or convince anybody to sway towards a particular camera. The images from the camera should just blow everything else away (which I feel they are doing. With the limited release we have seen).

But there must be one of each of these camera in NYC or Montreal, why don't you rent them up and do the test?

Battistella

 

[Nick Morrison]

Lets see that red prores module sooner than later.

Paul not sure if you heard, but Proxy module is dead.

 

[Jacobo Martinez]

If they don't wait for the new olpf and the new color science, the test will be obsolete. Why put all that effort for nothing, we all know that in the end we will say that was done without a finished camera. It would be unfortunate.

Its clear that dragon is not complete, and will never be complete. Red has always been a company that doesn't settle, they always want to improve their products, they want the best and they will always keep giving us new tools to capture great stories.

 

[Daniel Pearson]

I think Red should have waited until Red Color 4 to be ready before releasing the Dragon.

 

[Marc Wielage]

What we need to convince more DPs on Dragon...

The problem I hear from some fairly high-up DPs is that they are not being given the choice of camera for projects. They're being told, "we've budgeted for Camera X and want to use Camera X. Can you do this?" If the DP says, "I'd rather use Camera Y," the producers tell them, "OK, we'll find somebody else."

It's not about any perceived picture quality difference; it's about speed, convenience, and money. Reliability is also very high on that list. I know a producer who had a bad experience with a Sony F65 on a project, and now won't have a single Sony product in his office or home -- he hates Sony with a passion. It's irrational, but there you are. The guys on the CML discussion group have been bitching about this (with some justification) for quite some time now.

I think Red should have waited until Red Color 4 to be ready before releasing the Dragon.

I think Red needs several plug-on modules that make the camera seamlessly work exactly like an Alexa in terms of deliverable formats, especially for television and commercials. Frankly, they needed them two years ago.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

If they don't wait for the new olpf and the new color science, the test will be obsolete. Why put all that effort for nothing, we all know that in the end we will say that was done without a finished camera. It would be unfortunate.

Its clear that dragon is not complete, and will never be complete. Red has always been a company that doesn't settle, they always want to improve their products, they want the best and they will always keep giving us new tools to capture great stories.

Blah blah blah "Red Rulz!" type comment of no utility outside Red User where people could care less what a great guy Jim is and all that. (maybe simply of no utility whatsoever, sorry but..) Do a test with what it can do NOW, to make decision about camera choice THIS WEEK.

When things improve, do a new test. Until things improve, I could care less about what has been promised, because my shoot THSI WEEK will be over.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

The problem I hear from some fairly high-up DPs is that they are not being given the choice of camera for projects. They're being told, "we've budgeted for Camera X and want to use Camera X. Can you do this?" If the DP says, "I'd rather use Camera Y," the producers tell them, "OK, we'll find somebody else."

It's not about any perceived picture quality difference; it's about speed, convenience, and money. Reliability is also very high on that list. I know a producer who had a bad experience with a Sony F65 on a project, and now won't have a single Sony product in his office or home -- he hates Sony with a passion. It's irrational, but there you are. The guys on the CML discussion group have been bitching about this (with some justification) for quite some time now.


I think Red needs several plug-on modules that make the camera seamlessly work exactly like an Alexa in terms of deliverable formats, especially for television and commercials. Frankly, they needed them two years ago.

That is not true on projects with reasonable budgets, where the camera is a tiny part of the cost of a shooting day, so tiny it doesn't make a difference. I have never, ever been told a specific camera because it is cheaper, only (Alexa) because it is perceived to be better. Only 35mm film (which is extremely expensive) has been suggested against for budget reasons. Certainly Hollywood films (much higher budget than what I do) could care less about relative camera cost.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Geoff Boyle will be doing just that in February along with quite a few other cameras. Gunleik will be there to oversee that Dragon is handled properly...

This is great news. Unlike idiotic tests in the past which metered for MX at 200 ISO (great way to get crap dynamic range bozos!) or chose weird gamma outputs, hopefully the test will use the best post method (and measured ISO) for each camera. Gunleik reassures me 100% on that, as long as people listen to him. He knows his shizzle.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I would argue that in addition to any tests, the workflow needs to be more flexible.

In the commercial world, producers make the call as to what cameras to use equally (or more) than the DP's.
Alexa is easy. It shoots Prores that looks amazing...and unless you need the increased resolution for vfx or something there is really very little reason not to use it.

Lets see that red prores module sooner than later. The ability to walk with dailies and simultaneously a raw master will, in my opinion, bolster usage more than any comparative tests.

Finally, lets get that OpenCL Red debayer going on all the main editorial, color, and compositing apps. R3D should be easy and fast.

You can do that now with any number of external recorders that weigh a few ounces and that you can adhere to the cam with Velcro. You don't need any fancy modules.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I, kinda like Phil, would like to see a test when the OLPF is done and the dragon color science is released.

Until il then, I think you run the risk against running a beta camera against release builds. Clearly, dragon is great and getting better, but the first few side by sides will fill the internet with "opinion"

my my overal theory on tests is that the best ones are the ones you do yourself. There is no objectivity to any of these tests (as much as they try)and each of the tools can produce desirable, excellent images when 1. The DP knows the tool and the result they want and 2. The red images are processed properly.

I don't think "we" need to do or convince anybody to sway towards a particular camera. The images from the camera should just blow everything else away (which I feel they are doing. With the limited release we have seen).

But there must be one of each of these camera in NYC or Montreal, why don't you rent them up and do the test?

Battistella

My overall theory is that the tests you do yourself, if you are pushing to use a camera yourself or renting it to others, no one trusts. People trust reputable 3rd parties.

Also, if you think "we" don't need to convince anybody perhaps you are less interested than me in making money with your camera, or less familiar with the real world out there, where Mark Toia's tests and so on have inspired curiosity, but not really any firm conclusions. The world is not Reduser.

 

[Nick Morrison]

You can do that now with any number of external recorders that weigh a few ounces and that you can adhere to the cam with Velcro. You don't need any fancy modules.

The Odyssey 7 could certainly be a game changer. External recorders like this make it easier to understand why RED recently abandoned their proxy module. From the Blade to Small HD's future offerings, it appears clear that monitoring and proxy recording are slowly fusing into one box. Across the board, straight to edit workflows appear to be getting easier...for all cameras. Which is a plus, because I agree with Paul, the RED workflow never been it's selling point (a commitment to RAW was).

Also, computers appear to be catching up - the new Mac trashcan handles Dragon 6K files surprisingly well.