What to expect from a RED camera with Z mount?

[Phil Holland]

I'm sure there is a market for Burano. I'll save my thoughts for off the air there, but it is not a popular camera "out here". I'm 100% certain the next one will tidy up the reasons people are avoiding it.

I do want to add however something I've mentioned before. Now with Nikon involved and since they license H.265 and H.264, it would be pretty great for those who need a very lightweight codec to have a log encoded stream option. I'm pretty sure we don't have the hardware encoders today in body to do this, but next gen it would be great to have:
- REDCODE RAW - Compressed RAW
- ProRes - Compressed Mezzanine
- H.265/H.264 - heh, AV1 or H.266 worth looking at? - MPEG

Just to mention, I too would like some sort of internal ND solution. It still is the number one repair on many cameras that utilize it. I suspect RED and Nikon are looking very closely on how to do this at this point however.

I'd also be interested in scaled uncompressed DPX or TIF in 12, 14, or 16 bit. Datarate-wise DCI 4K 17:9 is doable up to 60fps as of today with max speed current media. We still don't have CFexpress Type-C which really opens up a world of possibilities.

Beyond all that, as I'm testing BMD 17K footage now, I'd really like to see RED take a stab at 12K or 16K in particular. This was another ask to Jarred late last decade, and though I was early to the ask, I think Medium Format is going to be enticing for many filmmakers. My personal take on modern formats is really all about motion picture film still. Super 16, Super 35, VistaVision, and 65mm-ish is likely all that will be needed in the digital space. I don't see much reason to up to 15-perf 70mm in size as digital is cleaner, more sensitive, and resolves better per square millimeter, but Dragon/Monstro/Raptor's pixel pitch scaled to 12K nets a 70mm image circle. Komodo-X sensor tech may be an option perhaps and that's a bit over 60mm. On existing media today, 12K DCI 17:9 is possible up to about 60fps. We are just getting to a world now where the most recent GPUs can handle this "well".

IQ-wise, 8K off of V-Raptor and V-Raptor [X] is very good and the high frame rate and format size fits the world's market nicely. You get VV, S35, and S16 in that format size as well as slightly taller than S35 4-perf for proper 2X anamorphic. Lots of wins there.

I think though this illustrates perhaps the different desires and needs/wants. Some of things I'm asking for may require larger cameras for instance. And in that situation, I'm fine with that. But I really think the DSMC3 body is a solid form factor for a variety of filmmaking applications and rigging. But I do have a few design notes that are relevant.

 

[Zack Birlew]

It is quite a thing we are seeing where 8K standard is dovetailing with 12K+ adoption as 4K is still holding strong for many. It's as if we are reaching a quality threshold in digital cinema to allow for industry standard coexistence in resolution that 16MM, 35MM, and 70MM film once had!

I'm sure I have personally predicted this at one point in these deep archives of threads, especially the need for the industry to adopt Medium Format and resolutions beyond 8K. I don't want to gloat about being right but it is nice to see that things have turned out this way and people are seeing that it is possible for affordable XX resolution Medium Format and surprisingly practical for the right productions.

While HDR video could be a solution to move forward, as per my previous post, another thing we may be seeing as new all-in-one camera releases are showing us is that people do want new cameras of all kinds and we may see a further juggling of cameras as we go forward.

Insta360 certainly has a nice foothold on the 360 market but getting that professional level of video from the Insta360 Pro series into their standard models is going to be a challenge going forward, especially as we move forward into 8K+ and 10-bit video. The Ace Pro 2 showed this with its 8K resolution but no 10-bit video.

Sony and Panasonic releasing new handheld video and B4 broadcast cameras shows a continued interest in this category. Innovating with 2/3" and 1"+ sensor 8K video could be a major gamechanger for many as we have seen a significant quality and visual fidelity boost by going from 1080P to 4K in this format.

GoPro continues to release new models but in the reverse of Insta360, resolution is still a struggle despite having 10-bit color.

Fuji and Panasonic have been on the 10-bit bandwagon for a while now and put out some strong and popular models, if perhaps too many to the point of confusion. However, the Eterna shows that they have a good base to build off of their GFX series for video and their new all-in-one models, the GFX 100RF an X100VI, show that artists have a need for simple to use all-in-one compact models of their larger cameras. The absolute holdout for these is that high end 8K still hasn't been done right in their lineups, most painfully in the GFX series with no full Medium Format sensor readout for 8K and apparently not even in the Eterna.

Blackmagic Design may be the ones that have painted themselves into a little bit of a corner with the Pyxis. The "Box Camera" style works for many but the issue is that they have neglected an 8K camera in the line. The Pocket series works as they are for low budget indies with 4K and 6K options but the Pyxis sits in the middle of going from the Pocket 6K and going to the URSA lineup which now has the new budget option being the URSA 12K OLPF. This is not a bad position to be in as a customer but the Pyxis came out as 6K when it really should have been 8K and serve as the true middle ground option and, if anything else, the perfect companion to the URSA 12K+ lineup.

Nikon itself also has changed the game with the Z8 and Z9 which put up a well established "No Arguments" offering. Refining these further could mean their own video models as Fuji has done with the GFX and Eterna but the other option is to simply refine them into Mark II's and Mark III's over time with upgrades to propel them further. With RED now offering the Z-mount versions of Komodo and Raptor, it's hard to consider a more appropriate companion camera than the Nikon Z series.

Sony is perhaps the biggest X factor in the industry at the moment as their entry into 8K video with the Venice 2 and Burano couldn't be of any more different approaches than the Alpha hybrid video line is to the Venice series and some may argue that even that's a little close as it is. The competition is pushing Medium Format and 8K, we have heard rumors of a new FX-level 8K camera so that much is clear so far but the Medium Format angle is the one to watch as we could get a surprise Venice 3 or "Venice 65" in a couple weeks! The low light advantage is also a key point for Sony but the newer cameras are catching up.

RED's key points that they need to consider are:

1. Price to performance - XL models are good but 8K is becoming standard so Raptor can't keep sitting high on its price point with URSA 17K 65 coming right at them at $30,000.
2. Low Cost 8K - The Komodo has been sitting at 6K but it's continuing to grow long in the tooth with 2,000 lines less resolution than more affordable mirrorless options. Bringing out an 8K Komodo to compete can interfere with Raptor's price point as well, this is a key issue and could depend on--
3. Medium Format - The top contenders are geared up and ready for Medium Format, RED needs to get into the ring and compete on this front and this could be the determining factor for their lineup going forward. Going further, this could also run parallel to the Komodo and Raptor with a lower cost Medium Format RED camera to come if RED opts for Arri's approach of image quality versus resolution. Let's say they go with T-Rex and Triceratops for the Medium Format names, so the REX can be the top of the line Medium Format camera with all the high speed features and everything, maybe a resolution bump to 12K, and the lower cost TRICERA features Medium Format 8K that can crop to FF and S35, being a "Trifecta" of a RED camera that can appeal to multiple users.
4. Low Light - RED needs to build off of the Gemini and offer a new high end low light camera, the resolution could be compromised to 8K or 10K if newer options go to 12K+ but it needs to at least meet the low light needs to go after Sony's lead.
5. Fixed Lens RED Camera - With the all-in-one Fuji cameras making such an impact, RED could put the dream of a fixed lens RED camera to work with a new global shutter model that can be used by beginners and for all of the tiniest of drone and action shots possible. Wider or closer? Just screw on wide angle and telephoto adapters.

So, with all of the industry indications to consider, RED has many options of how to move forward. If there were anything else, I think refining the Super 16 and B4 camera experience could serve a certain segment that could be of significant use if led by the right innovation.

 

[Phil Holland]

My take for now with some POV as a reply.

1. DSMC3 bodies are very competitively priced for what they actually do and are. Build, IQ, etc. They will go down in price one day however. For VV, there really isn't much out there in terms of production cameras that have the combination performance to price ratio here. BMD Ursa Cine 17K 65 is competitively priced, but the comparison isn't exactly apples to oranges across the board. Even the format size is an arguable comparison if you think about it.

2. Low Cost 8K. Probable. Maybe more from the Nikon realm as it is today, but a more streamlined body for motion work. It won't compete with Raptor class bodies. But we'll have a 30-60fps 8K solution eventually.

3. Medium Format. Well yes, I want this and I want to see RED keep pressing the gas in the 8K, 12K, and 16K arenas. Small, small market there for now, but it will be needed soon. I don't think they need to go super small with the pixel pitch. I have more thoughts on this than I could possibly write here at the moment.

I want to expand here a little as I have the tools to do this.
RED V-Raptor 8K VV vs. BMD Ursa Cine 17K at 17:9 Comparison:

PHFX.COM | tools - formatCompare

RED V-Raptor 8K VV 8K 17:9 & Blackmagic Design URSA Cine 17K MF 15.2K 17:9 - Crop Factor Datasheet

phfx.com

VV being a 0.93X crop essentially and 8K to 15.2K resolution disparity.

If RED goes MF where and how they do it is going to be a big question.

Right now the general tradeoff is better low light performance, dynamic range, and color information versus higher pixel resolution when dashing back and forth here. And for the record, I still might be purchasing a couple 17Ks. Testing literally now.

4. RED right now beats the Venice 2 and Alexa 35 in low light. If we are talking about more processed images out of mirrorless, particularly at lower bit depths, perhaps a point. I still don't recommend filming beyond ISO 3200 for most professional applications. 6400 max really if you need to. Raptor is superior to Gemini in Low Light with a much denser filter stack internally. You put something like the Low Light Optimized CSF from years prior in Raptor, you'll gain about 1.3-1.6 stops in reality. Perhaps more. Hard for me to measure without destroying a camera.

5. No. There is a market for fixed lens cameras, but you will notice the absolute pattern of flagship or main model, then tiered down to the eventual fixed lens option. I'm not saying this has no place in production cameras, but this market is so small and it's minimal R&D to sell more base hardware really shouldn't be the focus.

If I was a guessing man, I think the efforts of RED and Nikon could lead to a smaller sized FX3-ish sort of Komodo, probably a model with in body stabilization to appease the crowd. But perhaps sticking to a more useful Komodo-X body type with a focus on trimming some length and weight. Maybe getting it down to 2lbs again. Perhaps with a flip up top LCD that folds down and rotates for protection with a decent latch so you can still use it for things Komodo really does well.

I'll also say that Komodo-X is still one hell of a deal for the price if 6K and S35 are your jam. Considering the other options as a whole, really good.

 

[Afshin]

I think the priority is to not design lenses like this. This is Canon RF 24mm f1.4 distortion before in camera correction, tested by Chris Frost. They're basically making fisheyes at this point. If your lens needs this much correction in post, you gonna just waste those 12k pixels, at least at the corners.