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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

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Peter Lyons Collister ASC

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So I have a CF Weapon 6K. I am wondering what I should do .....

I f my next feature is with the Panavision 8K VV camera and I want to use my camera as the small hand held like we do on Transformers 5 do I try to get on the 8K VV upgrade wagon...

OR

do I go with the Helium path and go 8K S35 ......

Big question for me......

Looking for advice.....
 
Personally i would go with the VV you could put a panavision mount on it and use all the same lenses with the same field of view as the Panavision VV 8k, Instead of stepping down to S35. Also if you can't get the VV it might be even better to have the 6k CF, at least it will have the same sensor as the VV and you could use it to do some high frame rates with out cropping much.
 
Hey Peter... so to front up my prejudices I see both pros and cons in the debate between helium 8 v Drag 6.... so for me if dragon 8k is an option I would always choose bigger... (assuming you have the glass to work with)

After reading PVs 'marketing' white papers on sensor size we did some tests looking only at sensor size. Basically s16 vs oversized s35 (dragon 6k). We matched dof, FOV and made sure perspective was not changed by linning up the entrance pupils. We then degraded the 6k footage so it was softer and nosier than the s16 sized footage....results where not what some of us expected... BUT it made us much more exited by our, hopefully soon to come, 8k camera.

On a more practical note do you shoot much High speed? And what lenses do you put on the camera in handheld mode?

Ps Cynically, due to the que we are in, I should recommend that you get the helium upgrade and never look back at old dragon teck...;-)... but I'm feeling the Xmas spirit! Either way we are all pretty spoilt by these fantastic tools... In my very late 20s i used to want to justify owning a 435es and a set of super speeds so all of this is pretty surreal from that perspective. ... Might pick up a 435 as an Xmas ornament...
 
id say it depends on color science, cuz why just rush to helium if its not as developed? i know they are pushing out the preview science just now, but id test that with your DIT or colorist team to see if its better to stick to one sensor? it seems they have helium almost done as of now, I just dont have one to test and that personally makes me wonder how easy it is to match them pre finalized color science.. vs sticking with great older red tech that is very developed this stage...

one thing for your situation is the custom Pana colors mean even if you had your VV, it still won't match the Panavision highly customized VV anyway... id consider that prospect too cuz helium and panavision and dragon sensor, none of those technically match color wise and things might be easier to try to match a sensor than shoot 2 or 3 kinds? is two panavision VV sensors an option? cuz that'd be sick in general?

while we are at it, is alexa 65 an option to stay with big format minded? cuz that with panavision VV would really set it apart from S35?
 
When the new Helium Color Science + IPP2 + Red-Wide-Colour-Gamut are released in a production build:

+) Helium Pixel's will improve : Colour will look more accurate + have greater highlight detail
+) Dragon Pixels will improve : Dark areas will have more colour + heavily saturated colours will look more consistent.

What we don't have experience of is - will the Dragon pixel jump be enough that we don't feel we are 'missing out' on Helium?

Would a smidgen less noise from use 8k VV (vs 6k) be a good enough stocking filler (with the new CS) to stick with Dragon untils REDs next large format sensor (with new pixel structure) come out?

My (simpleton) thinking is that PV OLPF + PV Glass + PV CS will give a pleasing starting point for grading - But that Dragon + STD OLPF + RedWideColour + IPP2 will provide a container that when PV LUT is added on will be bring the new starting point pretty close.

And that Anamorphic lens on a VV 'height' sensor will have all the cinematic beauty of an Alexa 65 'big' image (something that Helium 8k cannot mimic)

AJ
 
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All good comments and they are appreciated ....

Alexa 65 is not an option to buy and it is too big for me but a wonderful camera. Sadly the Panavision 70mm lenses do not work on it without sensor crop.
Also footage shot with the PV 8K VV camera intercuts with RED 8K VV perfectly fine.

But I guess I would like to see some well done tests between Helium 8K and Weapon 6K or 8K. And Phil is just too damn busy!
 
I would go with S35 as it is easier to pull focus.

:)
 
Peter,

I think it's the Weapon VV. Remember if you shoot that sensor at 6k it's exactly like your dragon now, whereas 6k on the helium sensor would be a bit more like 4K on the dragon sensor. The heliums smaller pixels might mean less noise, but it also means smaller feild of view. I would want/take the larger FOV of the dragon 6k sensor over the 8k helium. If you have to do any off speed then I guess the VV is probably the better choice.

The extra FOV of the dragon VV sensor is where it's at for me.

David
 
since its all RAW maybe panavison will allow you to use their LUT to match your 8k VV to their panavision 8k VV . Probably with some sort of document that you have to sign that if the LUT gets out they will take you in the night and well never see you again.
 
Does someone have proof that Panavision changed Graeme's color science? Meaning is the Panavision r3d raw file difference from the Red 8K VV r3d raw file?
 
If you got the Pana VV allready on board. I would actually (if it´s not for future use after this movie) vote for a helium. Simply the helium sensor size is not a bad compliment to the VV you can use fast zoom etc which simply does not exist using the VV. So if it was me i think I would rather have one of each than two of the same. Helium on a long lens get sharper and longer. But if you plan to only use the big primos or something that covers the 8k VV, then sure try to get the VV. Think Jarred should let you jump in que to get one. As the helium has the smaller sensor it can take lenses with smaller image circles and those are in general faster and the both cameras are said to have the same signal to noise ratio so without doing any tests of my own, have not tested the VV, I still thing helium with the right lens can shoot nicely in lower light. Its quite amazing actually especially with the IPP2 so I would definitely test the helium before going double VV.


Peter Lyons Collister said:
Does someone have proof that Panavision changed Graeme's color science? Meaning is the Panavision r3d raw file difference from the Red 8K VV r3d raw file?
Click to expand...

This I have doubts about. There is so much they can change before changing the actual colorscience. I think especially with RWGRGB and the new IPP2 I would say that reaching in further into the red brain will give them more headache than do good. Possibly they make their own olpfs, and for sure they will do their own luts and color transforms but changing the color science I´m guessing they will not do even if they said they will.


But I would not be surprised if there is a bit of PANAVISION influence in the new IPP2.
 
I would go Helium.
The RED DNA is present in both cameras, so I think matching won't be an issue. But if you are looking for a C can kind of camera, you can grab stuff with minimal support, this would be the way to go IMHO.
You would be able to mount a larger variety of lenses on there, have less issues of critical focus and a higher light sensitivity.
 
If you want to intercut footage from your cam and the panavision cam, stick with your 6k dragon sensor (unless RED will gift you an early 8k dragon upgrade). 6k dragon footage will cut perfectly with 8k dragon footage but Helium is a different beast. Better to not mix the color science if you can avoid it (assuming you want to have both cams on the same scene)
 
Tricky one indeed, and I know the type of things you normally shoot. PV will indeed have Dragon and Helium cameras (DXLs and Weapons), so that doesn't make the choice much easier.

The biggest new thing for you Peter will be the glass to cover the full 8K FF sensor. I think you have some Nikon glass that should work just fine, but if you are exploring a bit you might want to pick up a new set of "something".

In terms of handheld use, the form factor is identical and the glass will be the size variation between the two really.

Helium does indeed get you cleaner low light performance if that is a thing. It encodes a bit more efficiently as well due to the lower noise floor which equals more detail really, but that will also be glass dependent.

I'm very fond of both at this point and I'm a big fan of the VV format size, also have the glass to exploit that as well.

As for the Color Science, there is Light Iron Color which is much more about subjective results than accurate results. i.e. color charts won't be "right" with the DXL, which isn't a bad that for the "stock" look they are going for. I wouldn't be surprised if some enterprising mind even creates a reverse/emulation of that down the line. They are still going to produce a custom OLPF however that will change certain properties.

It's a tough decision indeed.
 
Its my understanding Panavision had an in house 65 prior to scrapping it with TONS of R&D. I imagine some of the rehouse incorporates that R&D with Reds VV sensor. I have to wonder how seemingless it can cut with normal r3d colors in that Panavision is so focused on using their unique coloring for marketing? Putting anything out that can mimic it on an off the shelf Red is a huge risk to them, if its even at all possible. So two DXLs if possible seem like the way to go to me. But if not possible I'd gather Dragon color science is at least more developed. That is until Helium is finalized... Once Helium is done the low light and noise will be amazing. But until then Dragon might be more production ready id gather?
 
I would stick to Dragon 6K Weapon to match Panavision DXL grain structure and feel.

Im sure Light Iron can give your Weapon a LUT to match the DXL.

Best.
 
Nick Morrison said:
I would stick to Dragon 6K Weapon to match Panavision DXL grain structure and feel.

Im sure Light Iron can give your Weapon a LUT to match the DXL.

Best.
Click to expand...

I doubt Light Iron would be allowed to do that, Panavasion have paid them to develop the colour science for them alone.
 
I think think I saw a split screen with the differnce between PANA colors and regular red colors on the PANA website not long ago... I think it looked good but the difference is rather slim, if your colorist cant match good enough to intercut then I think it´s not the camera you need to change.

Edit: Here, the iron color on off a bit down on the page with a slider.
 
It is reasonable to conclude that a colorist chosen for a high budget project shot by ASC cinematographer should be competent enough to match cameras so I don't think Peter is going to have any trouble there.
 
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