What is going on? Red used marlet proces

[Luka Sanader]

in last several days prices on DSMC2 cameras plummeted to the point that it makes no sense any more. Epic-W is basically selling as low as 3500$ wile some dealers and resellers are selling Weapon Helium in sub 10k. While all this is going on the other side Red is still selling DSMC2 cameras at full price and offering upgrades for there DSMC2 line. I just did an 5000$ upgrade to monochrome and when I was offered Helium to Monstro upgrade on 25% discount that was still above the price of new V-Raptor... Further more, why would they still offer Monstro for 54k when you can buy superior V Reptor for half the price?

This situation is totally absurd: dealers are selling 8k, Raw , 60fps camera that used to cost 55k for 1/5 of the price by excuse that its obsolete. At the same time Ari Mini that is 10 years old and that is for a fact, sub 4k and technically superannuate camera ,holds its 75% of a value. To further cement absurdity, Red is still manufacturing DSMC2 and selling upgrades that cost more then there new V-Raptor
Cameras are using value like cray wile accessories still hold the price. Red Minimags are still overpriced without any alternative to this date. Fresh new buyers of "obsolete DSMC2" brains for 3500$ to 5500$, have to pay same amount of money for 4 used 480 cards? there is no logic in any of this!!!

If it continues like this, by the new years time, used Helium will have same faith as Alexa Classic EV. Unlike Classic EV, Helium will still
better performance than most cameras on the market.

To me all this seams irrational but it also reflect how Red camera value wasnt good investment

 

[Michael Hastings]

I haven't seen prices quite that low and It's not that it's obsolete in terms of capability - but they are several years old and $4-6K is not unreasonable because there are numerous cameras in the spec range (or better) selling between $3500 - 6000. A new R5 is 8K resolution with better and cheaper battery and media capability, better AF, newer RF mount etc so an EpicW that is several years old, no warranty, EOL or near EOL for parts and repair and likely to continue to price depreciate (vs. for example Canon cams hold resale value fairly well) is a riskier proposition to purchase these days.

 

[Luka Sanader]

I haven't seen prices quite that low and It's not that it's obsolete in terms of capability - but they are several years old and $4-6K is not unreasonable because there are numerous cameras in the spec range (or better) selling between $3500 - 6000. A new R5 is 8K resolution with better and cheaper battery and media capability, better AF, newer RF mount etc so an EpicW that is several years old, no warranty, EOL or near EOL for parts and repair and likely to continue to price depreciate (vs. for example Canon cams hold resale value fairly well) is a riskier proposition to purchase these days.

I strongly disagree with you. Epic W is 8k, R3D RAW, IPP2, with adjustable FFD and exchangable OLPF... professional motion picture camera that is still fully supported by Red. Then how can we compare real Cinema Camera to DSLR? Even if R5 had all the advantages over DSMC2 as you pointed out would this justified that amount of devaluation; how come then that Arri Mini who is far more behind in Spec then Dragon or Helium DSMC2 cameras isnt affected by R5? By that logic Mini should be half price of the Helium...Also, how can DSMC2 can be EOL when they still sale this camera new on there website and Red is still offering upgrades for this system? EOL for DSMC2? EOL should be minimum 4 years form now...

 

[Zack Birlew]

This is what I've been talking about, RED is in an unusual spot of having far more advanced camera tech for a time and then they drop support right as some of the competition catches up or bests them in the market and that leaves anybody who invested out in the cold for a camera system that could still be used for years to come while still meeting requirements for new media standards.

Instead, right as we got to the prime time of 4K being standard, RED has already dropped RED One, DSMC1, and other side cameras like the Raven and various different metal builds to push up their 8K Weapon cameras and special use models like Gemini and Komodo at the start of the 8K movement. Right now, even the RED One could still be killing it on the indie scene, like it did on my first feature which is almost done, but we didn't even get to using the option of 6K completely with other cameras before 8K has dropped down to replace 4K and there's even 12K if we want to go beyond that.

If RED had supported their older cameras longer, it would have been much like the film era where you could stay on a camera system as long as you possibly could and still produce professional results, the only "upgrade" being usability tweaks and more silent operation, however, when support for these advanced digital cameras are cut short of their potential viability, we end up with iPhone-like tech waste with RED cameras despite the far more advanced technology that will best or, at least, match cameras that will come out within the next three to five years from now (or longer). Heck, if you can buy brand new chips, capacitors, fuses and even make custom replacement boards out of new tech for something like a Commodore 64, you can't tell me RED can't have somebody make new replacement or upgrade boards for their cameras, it is technologically impossible at this point. On the same point, if that's still too much for RED to do themselves or to license out to somebody then that will have to stick as their reputation of cutting off advanced technology by means of support. So what's the point of having the latest advanced cameras in the world if their hope of long term investment and satisfaction can be shut down at a moment's notice via support switch? It makes them no different than any other camera manufacturer just doing what they can to force you to buy the latest model even if it's just one board or socket away from keeping your current camera running perfectly for several more years.

Don't get me wrong though, I like RED cameras and after working with my RED One MX, I would be more than happy to get another RED camera for a project but after seeing how closely the Blackmagic Pocket 4K matched our MX footage, I'm not sure I would ever invest in their top end cameras unless they were definitely far more advanced than what the competition could possibly offer for the foreseeable future and with all these other 8K cameras coming out right now, the RED V Raptor isn't it for me, it's simply not that much better. So, what you might also be seeing is the growing trend of RED cameras crashing on the used market because of this EOL cutoff practice and the fact that the competition is simply making more interesting price to performance options in this new time of 8K. Now, if RED brings back some of that craziness and drops a 16K+ resolution monster camera out of nowhere, then we can talk but even then I wouldn't count it as a long term investment unless they change their tune and start making some changes in their support and product offerings as well as camera design to make it last in terms of part selection, then that would be the real gamechanger.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Kinda makes sense to me... Having owned a Helium camera briefly, I'm not surprised its value has plummetted. It can certainly make nice images, but it has always traded DR/sensitivity/color for resolution but now you can get 8k and 12k cameras for under $6k that are more convenient to use in some cases. "Cinema camera" used to be a selling point, but really it's always just been a set of features that often come with a lot of operational inconveniences (large files, high power consumption, heavy camera, missing conveniences such as audio I/O, ND, AF) but 5-10yrs ago that was a badge of honor. Now you can get cameras half the price that are far more convenient to operate and offer comparable or better image quality. ARRI is an outlier since it is still the top for image quality so people with budgets will always be glad to jump through hoops to use the "best" camera. If you're not using the best, many people will think they might as well just use whatever is good enough to get the job done but also make the job as easy as possible. RED hardly changed their camera design in a decade because they could rest on the laurels of being the only affordable "cinema camera" that people trusted. Now you can get $2k cameras with internal raw and comparable image quality to helium/dragon. RED is no longer unique and Sony has taken the spot of the second best image quality camera with more operational conveniences and plenty of resolution. Almost no one cares about 8k even several years later. And those that do have to have the money to handle it will buy one of the higher end 8k cameras. Why shoot helium when you can shoot budget 8k on an R5 or UMP12k? If you want 8k with high quality images you'd be shooting monstro/raptor and 8k is still very niche and unnecessary anyway. The best camera around is 4.5k and few top cinematographers are complaining about that...

 

[M Harvey]

If you're a DP deciding between a used Helium and, I don't know, say a sexy brand new Komodo, how much more would you pay for the Helium?

If you're a small production company (making commercials, branded content, music videos, etc.) right now, would you buy a used Helium...or own an FX9/C300 mk3 for doc/interview stuff, rent whichever of the many high end "cinema cameras" is desired by the client for cinematic stuff? (Maybe you even have a blackmagic or komodo or whatever on the shelf for low budget stuff.)

We might all answer these questions differently. But I'd guess the reason prices are where they are is that the used market in general is replying to these questions with "not much more" and "rent what the client wants."

 

[Phil Holland]

Prices are weird for sure at the moment. The second you turn on any camera it drops in value, but we're also in the journey to DSMC3 now, which has produced a flagship camera at a price point that has surprised a lot of people and at the same time DSMC2 is very much a thing. But for many, especially early on, they've made their ROI on their bodies and want to sell as new stuff is incoming like Raptor. I don't even know how you would realistically go about pricing things in this particular market as the need and demand is very high for gear and supply is short. I don't know of any internal, $2K RAW cameras, but yes, cameras in general have become more affordable and more capable. Depending on your needs, market, and whatever it is you shoot for a living that can play into some decision making.

I'll back the point of convenience being a rather large selling point to the masses. That seems to be the flavor of the flood. Everybody's reality is different pertaining to whatever they are using. I literally can't do most of my work without 8K cameras even when finishing for merely 4K sometimes. So they are a very much needed tool in modern times for some. We also just saw a bunch of 8K cameras show up suddenly, that's something to note.

Meanwhile last week I shot S35 on Raptor and wasn't tapping into the 8K VV format. But on Helium I could get 8K in S35 and that is where that system shows it's strength still, that's why we've seen shows and films choose that camera really. It's not the low light beast that Gemini is, but it's not designed to be that either. Dragon is in this weird zone where Monstro was the follow up, Raptor from there, but it's still a fine looking sensor. Just doesn't have the full juice of the modern big boys.

I know a few people who bought used or BT Monstro bodies recently and they are loving that world. VV is indeed a great format. Likely still my favorite of the lot of them currently. But I mainly like 4 or 5 hero formats when it comes down to it. Fortunately VV gets me 3 of those in one camera.

 

[Michael Hastings]

I strongly disagree with you....snip...Then how can we compare real Cinema Camera to DSLR? ....

Luka strongly disagrees with me - well I was just kind of pointing out the facts of life. So let me flesh it out with a few more points:

1) The market is what the market is - depending on who is buying, the user's type of shooting, the other cameras available both new and used, age of the used camera, etc.

2) When I said "there are numerous cameras in the spec range (or better) selling between $3500 - 6000" I meant NEW cameras with full warranty vs. the used Epic-W.

3) I mentioned the R5 because I have owned both - I bought two Epic-Ws in 2017 - sold one fairly quickly after a 2 cam job and the other in 2019 for about $15K (brain and V-mount back only) and bought the r5 in august 2020 after being a bit annoyed at how far back in the line we Hydrogen buyers were pushed on the Komodo. So I have experience with both.

4) forgot to mention R5 is full frame/VV 8K sensor vs S35 in the Epic-w - and Full frame/VV seems to be a big deal now. (Not to mention the R5 is considered one of the finest still cameras ever made) Side note: the DSMC2 - Digital Stills Motion camera never really made a lot of sense - yes you can grab nice stills from them but the lack of flash support, weak AF, awkward Viewfinder, heavy batteries, etc.on DSMC2 compared to DSLR config doesn't make a lot of sense.

5) Luka was saying how can you compare a true "cinema" camera to a DSLR? Well there isn't a very big need for many true "cinema" cameras. The vast majority of camera buyers aren't shooting "cinema". A minor google shows that there were about 700 theatrical releases in 2019 but only 140 even grossed more than $10 million, so the other 560 were either very unprofitable or fairly low budget - maybe within the SAG low budget agreement (less than 2 million budget). So basically the true "cinema" market is very small and probably not buying used 4 year old cameras, except maybe ARRI.

6) While RED has been pushing dynamic range into the 16-17 stop range, virtually all theatrical movies up to maybe 2013 were shot on film or digital cameras with 12-13 stops or so of DR which is about where the $3500-6000 new cameras are. And ironically, most true "cinema"tographers"/DPs and decent budget "cinema" movies and commercials are fully capable of lighting to 12 stops DR.

7) It all goes back to what "the market" is willing to pay. For a long time Arri and RED had the market to themselves. Sony, Panasonic, Canon etc. were also rans, but that's not true any more. They all have viable products at both the high and low end of pricing and they have the advantage of massive marketing and sales organizations and diversified products both in the variety of cameras and more importantly with lenses so they don't have to make all their profit on the cameras.

Because of the RF mount Canon will make money on a large portion of the Komodo and Raptor buyers by selling them lenses.

Add in Blackmagic and the Chinese companies and the market is flooded with NEW competitive products - driving down the price of used REDs.

8) For myself - would I like a Raptor? - sure. Does it make sense? - nope - the R5 does everything I normally need in a friendlier and much more cost effective package. As the prices further deteriorate I might pick up one of those $2500 DSMC2s since I already have a bunch of the accessories sitting on my shelf - and although I haven't had an issue with it so far with the R5 - there is a concern about overheating in an underwater housing and I already have DSMC2 housings.

 

[Phil Holland]

Michael outlines a couple of interesting things and it squarely relates to use case. Owner of the R5 here, had an A1 for a heartbeat too. They are a far cry from a full production camera, but they can do quality work. Can they do a full day of shooting without a hitch on set? Nope. Not really. But no everybody who whacking on standard 8-12+ hour production days, union or not. Sum of the parts equates to the whole package. Timecode, Proxies, Genlock, etc. REDCODE RAW, or hell any "actual RAW" codec is still a big deal to people who now how to get the most out of it. For some, it might not be a big deciding factor as a metadata driven codec or some sort of encoded mezzanine codec will suffice for many. Even RED and Arri peeps get asked for ProRes workflows. Different strokes for different folks.

Right now with Raptor being so capable, it's hard to know what a used price for a DSMC2 or even DSMC camera should be in 2021. Especially since you can buy them new as well. I do know one guy who offloaded his Heliums to buy a Raptor package because VV was alluring. His pricing came down to a pretty realistic calculation considering the accessories. But I wouldn't say it went for nothing.

It will be a curious thing when the rest of the new new comes into play. Already there's a lot of shakeup on the higher priced cameras, but that's rarely discussed here because most of that is off the air. Extremely wild times we're in now.

We'll be seeing lots of side by sides, comparisons, filled with lots of POV coming up. Already seeing that a lot more this past year. The only thing that gets revealed is discovering what system is right for you and what you do professionally or where you want that to go.

 

[Luka Sanader]

Thanks guys, some interesting points made over hire! I was never Red fun boy and i primarily shoot 35mm. in 2016 i stated shooting wildlife and until pure hate for Sony F55 drove me in to Helium, it was never my choice. but Red grow on me and i started using Helium for drama and commercial work as well. For me personally DSMC2 is consider a small camera as all my life i am dragging Arri 535, 35bl, Moviecams and Mitchells so this is really small and easy. But i was never in love with shape of DSMC2. Still i think its really potent camera and it is really strange to see how its devaluated in last couple months.

I know its a trend with this VV now, but i still think that there are a lot of us who love S35 and that would be nice to see S-Raptor in the future. Until then Komodo isnt adequate replacement for Helium. Sure V-reptor at 6k far better option thatn extra 2k form Helium, i get that but still there is a lot of life left in DSMC2 Monsro and Helium cameras so declaring them EOL and selling brains for the price of 3 mini mags still makes no sense to me

Luckily for me, only DSMC2 i own at the moment is Monochrome and i am open to the idea to pick up Monstro in near future instead of Raptor due to all DSMC2 accessories i already have.

 

[Brody_B]

It’s kinda obvious tho right?

Red drops a super capable brand new DSMC3 full frame camera at a incredibly achievable price (not to the monstro owners delight). So now, if you could afford a Helium back in the day, then you can most likely afford a raptor today. Nix a trade in program typical of the past, and you now have a MASSIVE supply of Heliums going out to the used market.

This didn’t happen to Arri cause Arri never cannibalized it’s own product line as Red just did in order to be more disruptive, they never needed to but that’s a different conversation.

I just had a look on eBay, if you notice the price decline, it happens steeply over the last three months, especially in the last 6 to 8 weeks, pretty obviously tho black Raptors started shipping. The helium sellers wanting a raptor that are late to the party are clearly panicking, dropping their price one after the next, lower than the previous and so on. You might say they are frantically late to respond or unfortunately not in a financial position to pull the trigger on Raptor right away so they make a bad decision towards the big picture investment. Whatever reason it is, this is how it goes.

On that note, if someone had planned on moving to Raptor and dumping their DSMC2’s then why would they wait this long? Your practically shooting your self in the foot.

I personally made the decision to sell both my heliums and rent for the gap time before my Raptor arrived. This allowed me to sell my weapon helium 6 weeks before Raptor was even announced for $18k+ with only monitor, side handle and Base plate. (Some may say I was lucky with the timing, I would say I keep my ear to the ground). I then sold my epic-w 2 weeks after the announcement we’ll before even ST’s shipped for $16k+ with practically the same acc. Mini mags separately sold right after for a premium.

As for now, this late to the game, I don’t know if I would bother selling a helium, maybe not or maybe, the market could pump back up a little bit. Would need to be well after this flurry goes past. But who knows?

 

[Sergio Perez]

Its a bit of a broken record but Helium produces better images than 90% of the cameras out there, with proper light. The Monstro is still in the top 3 cameras worldwide for cinema production. I think people are going bonkers. Owning both a Monstro and a Raptor, the image difference is almost imperceptible in most shooting conditions, bare the added new features like frame rates and new body design. They differ a bit in look but its like a "film stock" thing. I'll be looking at those prices and will definitely jump in if I see crazy 10K offers for Monstro or 5K for Helium, for sure.

 

[Jon Dishler]

This was in 2017: DxOMark gives RED Helium 8K sensor a record-breaking 108 score. DxOMark has given RED's 35.4MP Helium 8K sensor its highest overall score ever: 108." I love the image from my Helium, never had a Monstro to compare, but Helium seems plenty sensitive to light - 800 ISO at 1/48 second exposure does not really require much illumination, usually I have to turn down the lights or use ND filters. I really don't understand this gotta be able to shoot at 3200 concept. It is not just about the amount of light, but where it is. It used to be that Helium ran to the green, but not for along while now. I think for significant slow motion with fast shutter speeds, it would make a bigger difference and great that you can do that with the Raptor, but how often is that really needed? It is really all the other stuff that matters like easy time code sync, good I/O, batteries that can be hot swapped, PL mount, ND filters, etc. And Helium is a great size sensor, just a little bigger than super 35, it is sweet!